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Thread: Doj rulemaking announcement

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    Doj rulemaking announcement

    DOJ today announced another CC rulemaking. See it at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/...er/reg669a.pdf

    The rule is going to define "firearms safety or training course," national orstate organization, etc.

    Looks like some peeps round here owe some other peeps some cheezburgers.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    DOJ today announced another CC rulemaking. See it at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/rsb/code/...er/reg669a.pdf

    The rule is going to define "firearms safety or training course," national orstate organization, etc.

    Looks like some peeps round here owe some other peeps some cheezburgers.
    Of course they are going to define terms. Not a big deal. You can not assume that the definition will be in any way exclusive or restrictive until it is actually published.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    DOJ is required to make administrative rules in order to comply with the concealed carry law. So this ought to be no surprise to anyone. I'm not anticipating any surprises when they finish the rules.

    They're making "emergency rules" because they don't have time to follow permanent rule-making procedures and have them in effect by November 1. But permanent rules will be made ASAP and those require a public hearing. If there's anything you don't like in the rules, that will be your time to have your say. I've been at rule-making hearings in the past and sometimes you have a full room and at other times you have an empty room.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Of course they are going to define terms. Not a big deal. You can not assume that the definition will be in any way exclusive or restrictive until it is actually published.
    You absolutely can assume it will exclude or restrict some training and groups. Why else would DOJ bother? To cut out sham organizations offering BS training, DOJ will establish reasonable definitions that 1) exclude organizations that don't have statewide or national footprints; and 2) don't require instructors the group certifies to meet certain minimal requirements.

    What will be interesting to me is whether DOJ looks at the DNR hunter safety courses as the minimum it should require, or the maximum:

    • DNR has an internet option; doesn't that mean MD's online training should count?
    • DNR's course is a minimum of 10 hours; will DOJ set a standard?
    • DNR requires testing; will DOJ?
    • DNR requires instructors to pass background checks, apprentice teach at least two classes, and then teach at least one class a year; will DOJ require instructors certified by groups to meet similar standards?


    Not advocating one way or the other, just wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    They're making "emergency rules" because they don't have time to follow permanent rule-making procedures and have them in effect by November 1. But permanent rules will be made ASAP and those require a public hearing. If there's anything you don't like in the rules, that will be your time to have your say. I've been at rule-making hearings in the past and sometimes you have a full room and at other times you have an empty room.
    ^^^THIS IS IMPORTANT! And the good news is you don't have to attend a hearing to comment. When the draft permanent rule is published, DOJ will announce hearing(s) and also how you can submit written comments. Written comments have the same weight as those made in person at the hearing. Usually, there's a 30-day window for sending in comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    You absolutely can assume it will exclude or restrict some training and groups. Why else would DOJ bother? To cut out sham organizations offering BS training, DOJ will establish reasonable definitions that 1) exclude organizations that don't have statewide or national footprints; and 2) don't require instructors the group certifies to meet certain minimal requirements.

    What will be interesting to me is whether DOJ looks at the DNR hunter safety courses as the minimum it should require, or the maximum:

    • DNR has an internet option; doesn't that mean MD's online training should count? MD's course should count as it is a safety course proctored by instructors
    • DNR's course is a minimum of 10 hours; will DOJ set a standard? NRA Basic is only 8 hours, DOJ still has to accept it. UT's class is minimum 4 hours, DOJ still has to accept it as well.
    • DNR requires testing; will DOJ? Testing of applicants? They can't..it's not provided for in the statute.
    • DNR requires instructors to pass background checks, apprentice teach at least two classes, and then teach at least one class a year; will DOJ require instructors certified by groups to meet similar standards? DOJ can't determine certification standards for other groups.


    Not advocating one way or the other, just wondering.

    My thoughts in red above

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    I will reserve judgement on their decision until they publish it. Why get your undies in a bundle over what you don't know and can't know until they tell us?
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    [*]DNR's course is a minimum of 10 hours; will DOJ set a standard?
    Well if they do, there would be no basis for using the Hunter Education program as the standard. The 10 hours of the DNR course includes a lot of irrelevant (to concealed carry) time covering game identification, field dressing, wildlife management and so on.
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    It is difficult for me to comprehend that through the rule making process the DoJ can establish acceptable training requirements more rigid than the minimum required by statute 175.60. Now that the DNR has online test out certification in process it would be difficult for the DoJ to discredit the MD course. However, as demonstrated by the open meeting video taping incident, anything can happen in the political circus of Wisconsin. Shotgun is correct. When the official rules come up for public review we must be ready to boogie.

    My opinion

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    The DNR E-course includes a "field" day where you must bring your test and physically perform tasks.
    I have it on good authority that the DOJ will require some amount of face-to-face training in order to qualify so anyone planning to take on-line only training will have to change their plans.
    Regarding trainers not called out by name in Act 35, the DOJ will require reference to Admin Code on the certificate which has not been written yet. This means that no certificate anyone is currently issuing will be accepted. A Hunter safety certificate will be accepted in its current and past forms. The DNR is not expected to change anything. I am certain that MD has no plans to issue a special certificate just for WI in order to comply with this even if their on-line training were to be accepted (which it will not)
    We can expect a minimum number of hours (4-ish is a reasonable guess) and that the organization must have a paper trail to show that it has certified its instructors. The instructors will need to have undergone formal training AND demonstrated themselves.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-16-2011 at 10:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The DNR E-course includes a "field" day where you must bring your test and physically perform tasks.
    I have it on good authority that the DOJ will require some amount of face-to-face training in order to qualify so anyone planning to take on-line only training will have to change their plans.
    Regarding trainers not called out by name in Act 35, the DOJ will require reference to Admin Code on the certificate which has not been written yet. This means that no certificate anyone is currently issuing will be accepted. A Hunter safety certificate will be accepted in its current and past forms. The DNR is not expected to change anything. I am certain that MD has no plans to issue a special certificate just for WI in order to comply with this even if their on-line training were to be accepted (which it will not)
    We can expect a minimum number of hours (4-ish is a reasonable guess) and that the organization must have a paper trail to show that it has certified its instructors. The instructors will need to have undergone formal training AND demonstrated themselves.

    I can't see the NRA changing their certificates to be state specific either....but those classes still must be accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    I can't see the NRA changing their certificates to be state specific either....but those classes still must be accepted.
    The NRA certificate is not called out specifically in Act 35 so there is no "must" for a current NRA certificate.
    I can definitely see a NRA instructor having to change their certificate. The NRA is not different than AACFI or RWVA, etc when it comes to proof of training.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-16-2011 at 11:10 AM.

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    This just in...

    the DOJ is not setting training curriculum for AACFI. AACFI is free to continue to teach our current curriculum & it WILL be accepted by the Wisc DOJ. Online courses will NOT be accepted as formal training. This is directly from someone high up in AACFI who is in Contact with the Wisc DOJ. A letter of all accepted training organization will be released by the DOJ in early October.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The NRA certificate is not called out specifically in Act 35 so there is no "must" for a current NRA certificate.
    I can definitely see a NRA instructor having to change their certificate. The NRA is not different than AACFI or RWVA, etc when it comes to proof of training.
    I can't see ANY national training organization "Bowing Down" to the whims of the WI DOJ.

    There are 48 other states that issue CC permits, do you suppose EVERY training group customizes their certificates for each state ?
    Any one of you lily livered, flea bitten, bow legged varmints care to slap leather with me?

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    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    the DOJ is not setting training curriculum for AACFI. AACFI is free to continue to teach our current curriculum & it WILL be accepted by the Wisc DOJ. Online courses will NOT be accepted as formal training. This is directly from someone high up in AACFI who is in Contact with the Wisc DOJ. A letter of all accepted training organization will be released by the DOJ in early October.
    So neither MD or WI online Hunters Ed training will be accepted then.
    Any one of you lily livered, flea bitten, bow legged varmints care to slap leather with me?

    A.S.N.F.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Po-lock View Post
    I can't see ANY national training organization "Bowing Down" to the whims of the WI DOJ.

    There are 48 other states that issue CC permits, do you suppose EVERY training group customizes their certificates for each state ?
    According to Act 35 all you need is a copy of a past or current permit issued by another State. You do not have to use "just" the training so the actual training certificate is irrelevant. No other State issues training certificates "for" Wisconsin.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I have it on good authority...
    Which means absolutely nothing without any proof.

    Regarding trainers not called out by name in Act 35, the DOJ will require reference to Admin Code on the certificate which has not been written yet. This means that no certificate anyone is currently issuing will be accepted.
    Better call Veteran's Affairs so everyone can go through basic again. Just to get the proper "admin code" on their discharge papers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You do not have to use "just" the training so the actual training certificate is irrelevant. No other State issues training certificates "for" Wisconsin.
    Except for your buddy and the AARP actual WI training... Right?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 09-16-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da Po-lock View Post
    So neither MD or WI online Hunters Ed training will be accepted then.
    WI Hunter Safety does not have an online only program. It does not exist. It differs from the MD training in this aspect. You MUST still attend face to face training at a field day in order to receive your WI Hunter Safety Certificate.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Which means absolutely nothing without any proof. .
    The proof is in the pudding... When the DOJ releases its Admin Code, compare it to my statements.



    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Better call Veteran's Affairs so everyone can go through basic again. Just to get the proper "admin code" on their discharge papers.
    That's just silly. The "code" is already there. It is called an Honorable Discharge..... If you are a veteran or know one, simply look at the DD214 to set your mind at ease..

    (4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training
    requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of
    the following:
    4. Documentation of completion of small arms training
    while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or
    national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge
    or general discharge under honorable conditions
    or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service
    record of successful completion of small arms training
    and certification.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-16-2011 at 11:33 AM.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    WI Hunter Safety does not have an online only program. It does not exist. It differs from the MD training in this aspect. You MUST still attend face to face training at a field day in order to receive your WI Hunter Safety Certificate.
    So even though the law says hunter safety training will be good enough for a permit every single person who has hunter safety will have to do it again because they do not have the proper code on their certificate?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The proof is in the pudding... When the DOJ releases its Admin Code, compare it to my statements.





    That's just silly. The "code" is already there. It is called an Honorable Discharge..... If you are a veteran or know one, simply look at the DD214 to set your mind at ease..
    So... Documentation is a code. But our current documentation is not a code.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The proof is in the pudding...
    Yah, that's exactly what I thought. Absolutely no way to back any of this up.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 09-16-2011 at 11:37 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    So even though the law says hunter safety training will be good enough for a permit every single person who has hunter safety will have to do it again because they do not have the proper code on their certificate?
    There is no "code" needed on a Hunter Safety Certificate. The past and current certificates are named in the Statute as being acceptable AS IS. The certificate requirements are only for that training which is NOT Hunter Safety, Military, etc. as called out in Act 35.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    There is no "code" needed on a Hunter Safety Certificate. The past and current certificates are named in the Statute as being acceptable AS IS. The certificate requirements are only for that training which is NOT Hunter Safety, Military, etc. as called out in Act 35.
    What was the "etc." part again?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    So... Documentation is a code. But our current documentation is not a code.
    There was a confusion regarding the 2 types of proof of training we are discussing. A DD214 and a Hunter Safety Certificate are not required to reference the WI DOJ Admin Code. Proof of training from the NRA, AACFI, RWVA, etc which are not called out in Act 35 by name will be required to reference the Admin Code on their certificates. Since the Code has not been created, no current certificate will be acceptable.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    What was the "etc." part again?
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...ealedCarry.asp

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