Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36

Thread: Attempt to disarm by LEO

  1. #1
    Regular Member paramedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Waycross, GA
    Posts
    118

    Attempt to disarm by LEO

    Without going into too much detail, I recently had the occasion of local LE being called to my residence(let preface by saying they should have not been called in the first place and they told the person as much). My wife and I had just returned from errands, so both were still OCing. We learned from my adult son that LE was on the way. Upon their arrival I answered the door, when I opened the door I had to shoo the dog away (a very large German Shepard). I invited the officer to come in, he then looked at my side and asked if I would step out to his car to speak with him. I had no reason not to so I did. When we reached the cruiser he asked me to put my hands on the hood of his car, I looked at him with some disbelief and asked him why(the situation he was called for did not even involve me). He said, sir I do not no you and you are clearly aggitated, for my safety I am going to disarm you. I asked what made him think I was upset, he said I was yelling when I answered the door, I told him I was telling the dog to move out of his way, and that I was not upset. I then said that he did not have any probable cause to confiscate my weapon. He continued to say that he thought I was upset, I said I am starting to get upset being treated like a criminal. He tried repeating the "officer safety" speech. I told him without placing me under arrest, he had no cause to take my weapon. After several minutes of both of us repeating the same statements over and over, he finally asked if I would just mind answering some questtions, I told him I would have done that in the first place, I offered to sit on the hood of his car, and even said I would keep my strong side to him and visible. So after about 5 minutes of useless banter, he asked me about the situation, and I told him that I had no Idea since I had just arrived home about 1 minuted before he arrived. He was a little frustrated about that and just turned and walked away from me back to the house.


    Before all of you ask, I did not have a voice recorder.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Quarryville, PA
    Posts
    3,543
    Way to stick up for yourself! Sounds like a strange situation. I don't see why the officer had any reason to want to disarm you. How are you thinking about proceeding? Are you gonna file a complaint or a FOIA request? No voice recorder?, cmon you know better...lol
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  3. #3
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Reminds me of the story of the scorpion and the turtle...

    If LE comes to your door and asks you (but does not arrest you or have any RAS/SAF for probable cause) and it's not related to you being a witness or something that will help the community, you should decline and say 'if you don't have a warrant, I'm not going anywhere with you, but I will give my lawyer a call, what's your name and badge number...'

    ...or words to that effect.

    You're only exposing yourself to additional jeopardy and SOME LEOs will attempt to find a crime for which to arrest you. You made a tactical error, allowing yourself to be 'cut from the herd' and interviewed, much like a predator will interview their prey, to see if you have a weakness or will incriminate yourself or RESIST arrest.

    Since resisting is a crime, probably (IANAL) even if you are just being voluntarily questioned and asked to put your hands behind your back for 'officer safety', then you could be totally innocent of anything and they have no -legal- reason to question you, yet still find yourself in the system.

    Beware those who seem really "nice" and friendly. The average LEO is NOT your friend.

    If you had a recorder at home, why not take it and ask if you can record? You probably just forgot under the pressure of a surprise visit. So he already had you off your game.

    Good for you for standing your ground. But in the future here's a tip "DON'T TALK TO THE POLICE".
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  4. #4
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Ya done good.
    I had the county come to my home inquiring about a situation with the neighbor and wanted to disarm me after I stepped out of the house to chat.
    I told him that I was going to be At Least as well armed as he, or we wouldn't be having a conversation. He also declined my counter offer that he could come inside to talk, but only if he left his sidearm in the car first. He didn't think that was "fair", so we parted ways and I went back inside the house to slay more zombies.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 09-15-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    ask if you can record
    Why?
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373
    Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

    Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

    Secondly, don't go onto hostile territory (the sheriff's department for example) or even (as in this case) neutral territory. Stay on your own property, where your legal rights are strongest. But don't leave your door open, that's an invitation to the cop to enter.

    Do be polite. Say, "No, thanks, I prefer to stay here." when asked if you'll go somewhere other than your own front porch.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic View Post
    ...just turned and walked away from me back to the house.
    He walked back into your house uninvited?

    Well, OK, I guess technically you'd invited him in previously and he was just taking you up on the generous offer since apparently the reason for the call was the adult son (still in the house I guess) or someone else acquainted with the son.
    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

  8. #8
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,694
    Just goes to show the value of a good, properly used, screen door.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

    Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".
    Just wondering how he should have handled it? The officer was summoned to the house by someone and is met at the door by an armed individual who refuses to allow entry. How does that not escalate into something worse? Sounds like a catch 22 for the officer and the armed home owner. The officer won't leave not knowing of the situation and safety of those inside.

    Nice job once you were outside to not back down on principle.

  10. #10
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Two things. Don't invite them into your house. Don't leave your property when speaking with them.

    This is disturbing to me since it is in Prince William County and therefore affects me as well. Glad you stood your ground.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 09-15-2011 at 04:56 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by TraumaRN View Post
    Just wondering how he should have handled it? The officer was summoned to the house by someone and is met at the door by an armed individual who refuses to allow entry. How does that not escalate into something worse? Sounds like a catch 22 for the officer and the armed home owner. The officer won't leave not knowing of the situation and safety of those inside.

    Nice job once you were outside to not back down on principle.
    The cop declined the OP's invitation to enter and asked the OP to step outside. I'm not sure if that cancels out the invitation to enter, but shutting the door behind oneself may be a good indication of cancelling the invitation.

    The cop seems to have wanted to discuss with the OP the reason he (the cop) was summoned. The OP had no idea yet what was going on.

    "Officer safety" during a consensual contact can be negated by walking away. Had the cop determined he had PC to hold the OP pending an investigation to determine if in fact a crime had been, was being or was about to be committed the cop would have informed the OP he was in fact being detained and disarmed. The cop failed to do so. That's a good opportunity to tell the cop you are going to go talk with your family members and find out who called for a cop and why. And shut the door behind you as you go back inside.

    The bottom line seems to be that the cop really was not all that concerned about why he had been dispatched, as he seems to have abandoned all discussion of that topic. Just another example of the cops demonstrating that they have no duty or obligation to protect any specific person even when they do show up after a call is made asking them to attend the situation.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  12. #12
    Regular Member paramedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Waycross, GA
    Posts
    118
    I guess I should have clarified a little more, the whole situation was actually a civil matter over some property involving my sons former girlfriend and him, she actually called just hoping to get him in trouble, and was very upset to find that law enforcement could not do anything about the situation, both the PWC officer and the PWC Deputy were very upset with her and told her so.

    I do thank everyone for the advice for further situations. I guess being a former LEO in Florida I tend to be a little more willing to respond to certain request such as to step outside, or even invite them in. But after Users advice, I am pretty sure I will be much more careful about inviting them in.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic View Post
    I guess I should have clarified a little more, the whole situation was actually a civil matter over some property involving my sons former girlfriend and him, she actually called just hoping to get him in trouble, and was very upset to find that law enforcement could not do anything about the situation, both the PWC officer and the PWC Deputy were very upset with her and told her so.

    I do thank everyone for the advice for further situations. I guess being a former LEO in Florida I tend to be a little more willing to respond to certain request such as to step outside, or even invite them in. But after Users advice, I am pretty sure I will be much more careful about inviting them in.
    I've been quiet on this because it was a touchy situation.
    Bottom line is......,I'm glad it wasn't me and you handled better than most would have!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Why?
    As to why ask if you can record...

    Well, it shows you are savvy, you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...

    If it's a consensual stop (as here) and you ask if you can record and he says no, then I'm saying 'have a nice day' and shutting the door, after giving him my lawyer's business card.

    What was your reason for asking, Ed? Maybe I'm missing your point.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    As to why ask if you can record...

    Well, it shows you are savvy, you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...

    If it's a consensual stop (as here) and you ask if you can record and he says no, then I'm saying 'have a nice day' and shutting the door, after giving him my lawyer's business card.

    What was your reason for asking, Ed? Maybe I'm missing your point.
    We're talking about Va Badger, not a two party state. Asking is an intimidating gesture sometimes but so is just recording it. You also get more if it's not announced.
    Asking if you can record shows some reluctance and just gives the cop some wiggle room to intimidate you into not recording.

  16. #16
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    ...you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...
    What state are you in, Badger?

    If you're too scared to say (I see you left it out of your profile), that's okay.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    What state are you in, Badger?

    If you're too scared to say (I see you left it out of your profile), that's okay.
    I'm not too scared to say, why do you ask?
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Alexandria, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    416
    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

    Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

    Secondly, don't go onto hostile territory (the sheriff's department for example) or even (as in this case) neutral territory. Stay on your own property, where your legal rights are strongest. But don't leave your door open, that's an invitation to the cop to enter.

    Do be polite. Say, "No, thanks, I prefer to stay here." when asked if you'll go somewhere other than your own front porch.
    I think this is really good advice. I had a cop recently knock on my apartment door asking about my neighbor, and he wanted to come into my apartment. I declined and spoke to him in the hallway. I would never let them in voluntarily. I never really thought about the step off my territory to neutral territory aspects.

  19. #19
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,553
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I'm not too scared to say, why do you ask?
    I see your posts in the VA forum sometimes.

    I might lend them a little more credence if I knew the general area you're from -- the state, at least.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519

    "Knock and Talk"

    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

    Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

    Secondly, don't go onto hostile territory (the sheriff's department for example) or even (as in this case) neutral territory. Stay on your own property, where your legal rights are strongest. But don't leave your door open, that's an invitation to the cop to enter.

    Do be polite. Say, "No, thanks, I prefer to stay here." when asked if you'll go somewhere other than your own front porch.
    "Knock and Talk" encounters can be terribly dangerous for any of the parties involved. The important fact to understand is that you are under no obligation to answer the front door. This includes cops, absent a warrant.

    Remember, boys & girls:

    If Called by a Panther, Don't Anther

  21. #21
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,217
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    I see your posts in the VA forum sometimes.

    I might lend them a little more credence if I knew the general area you're from -- the state, at least.
    Well, not to be argumentative, but if my posts don't stand on their own then you're welcome not to give them any credence. I usually sign off as '$.02' for 'my two cents' and opinion. I admit to being a newbie on 2A issues, and on use of HGs, so take me with a grain of salt.

    I see you're a Dr.

    Dentist?

    I'm a retired pathologist.

    -----
    Back to the topic. I was standing on my porch one day and happened to say, while laughing 'I'd like to punch So-and-So in the nose', which is equivalent to 'give a piece of my mind', or 'kick someone's hind end', but just so happened that the child of this person who irked me was walking by when I said it (having been asked).

    In about 20 minutes two cops showed up and wanted to talk to me. I was aghast. I said 'what's the problem? People say 'punch in the nose' all the time meaning they're irked. It doesn't mean actually hitting a person, or even threatening to hit someone, give me a break'.

    They said 'Well since you said it standing on your porch, and we didn't hear you, we won't arrest you, but if you'd been standing in the street and said it we'd arrest you for threatening someone'. (Ri-i-i-ght!).

    I said 'well, it was a figure of speech, but if you like I'll apologize to everyone involved, I definitely do NOT plan to go punch anyone AND I didn't say it to THEM I said it to another person who was grousing also and their kid overheard it'.

    Imagine that. They can arrest you if you're standing in the street and say to the world, 'I'd like to punch so-and-so in the nose'.

    Another reason I wonder about the educational requirements for that office, lol.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 09-16-2011 at 07:52 PM.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  22. #22
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    on a rock in the james river
    Posts
    1,453
    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater;1612017-----Snip ----Remember, boys & girls:

    [size=+1
    I'm keepin' this one.

  23. #23
    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    368
    This thread has some very good information that I would not have otherwise thought of. Thank you to the OP for starting this thread.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    -----

    Back to the topic. I was standing on my porch one day and happened to say, while laughing 'I'd like to punch So-and-So in the nose', which is equivalent to 'give a piece of my mind', or 'kick someone's hind end', but just so happened that the child of this person who irked me was walking by when I said it (having been asked).

    In about 20 minutes two cops showed up and wanted to talk to me. I was aghast. I said 'what's the problem? People say 'punch in the nose' all the time meaning they're irked. It doesn't mean actually hitting a person, or even threatening to hit someone, give me a break'.

    They said 'Well since you said it standing on your porch, and we didn't hear you, we won't arrest you, but if you'd been standing in the street and said it we'd arrest you for threatening someone'. (Ri-i-i-ght!).
    ....


    Imagine that. They can arrest you if you're standing in the street and say to the world, 'I'd like to punch so-and-so in the nose'.

    Another reason I wonder about the educational requirements for that office, lol.
    Actually, they can arrest you even if you were on your own property. At the least you offered violence against another and could be arrested for simple assault. At the worst (?) you could be arrested for making terroristic threats.

    There are some technicalities regarding if you made the statement in the presence of the officer(s) or not, but that gets into being arrested on the spot or being arrested after the person you threatened obtained a warrant.

    Your right to free speech actually ends a bit before the other person's nose.

    I agree that merely expressing a desire to do something, as opposed to actually stating your intent to do the act, should not be a criminal offense.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    As to why ask if you can record...

    Well, it shows you are savvy, you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...

    If it's a consensual stop (as here) and you ask if you can record and he says no, then I'm saying 'have a nice day' and shutting the door, after giving him my lawyer's business card.

    What was your reason for asking, Ed? Maybe I'm missing your point.
    Actually... it would show just the opposite. Asking implies you don't know, and asking a cop to give you advice on a legal matter removes all doubt, you would definitely not be savvy for doing that. LEOs are notoriously unqualified to give legal advice, and in many cases it would be a conflict of interest for them to give you truthful legal advice, even if they knew it.

    In Virginia, it's fairly well-established that the law is on your side under most circumstances.

    TFred

    By the way, this is the VIRGINIA forum. I wish we had a rule that said "All geographical references are assumed to be IN Virginia, unless stated otherwise." JMHO...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •