Attempt to disarm by LEO

Without going into too much detail, I recently had the occasion of local LE being called to my residence(let preface by saying they should have not been called in the first place and they told the person as much). My wife and I had just returned from errands, so both were still OCing. We learned from my adult son that LE was on the way. Upon their arrival I answered the door, when I opened the door I had to shoo the dog away (a very large German Shepard). I invited the officer to come in, he then looked at my side and asked if I would step out to his car to speak with him. I had no reason not to so I did. When we reached the cruiser he asked me to put my hands on the hood of his car, I looked at him with some disbelief and asked him why(the situation he was called for did not even involve me). He said, sir I do not no you and you are clearly aggitated, for my safety I am going to disarm you. I asked what made him think I was upset, he said I was yelling when I answered the door, I told him I was telling the dog to move out of his way, and that I was not upset. I then said that he did not have any probable cause to confiscate my weapon. He continued to say that he thought I was upset, I said I am starting to get upset being treated like a criminal. He tried repeating the "officer safety" speech. I told him without placing me under arrest, he had no cause to take my weapon. After several minutes of both of us repeating the same statements over and over, he finally asked if I would just mind answering some questtions, I told him I would have done that in the first place, I offered to sit on the hood of his car, and even said I would keep my strong side to him and visible. So after about 5 minutes of useless banter, he asked me about the situation, and I told him that I had no Idea since I had just arrived home about 1 minuted before he arrived. He was a little frustrated about that and just turned and walked away from me back to the house.


Before all of you ask, I did not have a voice recorder.

Way to stick up for yourself! Sounds like a strange situation. I don't see why the officer had any reason to want to disarm you. How are you thinking about proceeding? Are you gonna file a complaint or a FOIA request? No voice recorder?, cmon you know better...lol

Reminds me of the story of the scorpion and the turtle...

If LE comes to your door and asks you (but does not arrest you or have any RAS/SAF for probable cause) and it's not related to you being a witness or something that will help the community, you should decline and say 'if you don't have a warrant, I'm not going anywhere with you, but I will give my lawyer a call, what's your name and badge number...'

...or words to that effect.

You're only exposing yourself to additional jeopardy and SOME LEOs will attempt to find a crime for which to arrest you. You made a tactical error, allowing yourself to be 'cut from the herd' and interviewed, much like a predator will interview their prey, to see if you have a weakness or will incriminate yourself or RESIST arrest.

Since resisting is a crime, probably (IANAL) even if you are just being voluntarily questioned and asked to put your hands behind your back for 'officer safety', then you could be totally innocent of anything and they have no -legal- reason to question you, yet still find yourself in the system.

Beware those who seem really "nice" and friendly. The average LEO is NOT your friend.

If you had a recorder at home, why not take it and ask if you can record? You probably just forgot under the pressure of a surprise visit. So he already had you off your game.

Good for you for standing your ground. But in the future here's a tip "DON'T TALK TO THE POLICE".

Ya done good.
I had the county come to my home inquiring about a situation with the neighbor and wanted to disarm me after I stepped out of the house to chat.
I told him that I was going to be At Least as well armed as he, or we wouldn't be having a conversation. He also declined my counter offer that he could come inside to talk, but only if he left his sidearm in the car first. He didn't think that was "fair", so we parted ways and I went back inside the house to slay more zombies.

Badger Johnson said:

ask if you can record

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Why?

Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

Secondly, don't go onto hostile territory (the sheriff's department for example) or even (as in this case) neutral territory. Stay on your own property, where your legal rights are strongest. But don't leave your door open, that's an invitation to the cop to enter.

Do be polite. Say, "No, thanks, I prefer to stay here." when asked if you'll go somewhere other than your own front porch.

paramedic said:

...just turned and walked away from me back to the house.

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He walked back into your house uninvited?

Well, OK, I guess technically you'd invited him in previously and he was just taking you up on the generous offer since apparently the reason for the call was the adult son (still in the house I guess) or someone else acquainted with the son.

Just goes to show the value of a good, properly used, screen door.

user said:

Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

Click to expand...

Just wondering how he should have handled it? The officer was summoned to the house by someone and is met at the door by an armed individual who refuses to allow entry. How does that not escalate into something worse? Sounds like a catch 22 for the officer and the armed home owner. The officer won't leave not knowing of the situation and safety of those inside.

Nice job once you were outside to not back down on principle.

Two things. Don't invite them into your house. Don't leave your property when speaking with them.

This is disturbing to me since it is in Prince William County and therefore affects me as well. Glad you stood your ground.

TraumaRN said:

Just wondering how he should have handled it? The officer was summoned to the house by someone and is met at the door by an armed individual who refuses to allow entry. How does that not escalate into something worse? Sounds like a catch 22 for the officer and the armed home owner. The officer won't leave not knowing of the situation and safety of those inside.

Nice job once you were outside to not back down on principle.

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The cop declined the OP's invitation to enter and asked the OP to step outside. I'm not sure if that cancels out the invitation to enter, but shutting the door behind oneself may be a good indication of cancelling the invitation.

The cop seems to have wanted to discuss with the OP the reason he (the cop) was summoned. The OP had no idea yet what was going on.

"Officer safety" during a consensual contact can be negated by walking away. Had the cop determined he had PC to hold the OP pending an investigation to determine if in fact a crime had been, was being or was about to be committed the cop would have informed the OP he was in fact being detained and disarmed. The cop failed to do so. That's a good opportunity to tell the cop you are going to go talk with your family members and find out who called for a cop and why. And shut the door behind you as you go back inside.

The bottom line seems to be that the cop really was not all that concerned about why he had been dispatched, as he seems to have abandoned all discussion of that topic. Just another example of the cops demonstrating that they have no duty or obligation to protect any specific person even when they do show up after a call is made asking them to attend the situation.

stay safe.

I guess I should have clarified a little more, the whole situation was actually a civil matter over some property involving my sons former girlfriend and him, she actually called just hoping to get him in trouble, and was very upset to find that law enforcement could not do anything about the situation, both the PWC officer and the PWC Deputy were very upset with her and told her so.

I do thank everyone for the advice for further situations. I guess being a former LEO in Florida I tend to be a little more willing to respond to certain request such as to step outside, or even invite them in. But after Users advice, I am pretty sure I will be much more careful about inviting them in.

paramedic said:

I guess I should have clarified a little more, the whole situation was actually a civil matter over some property involving my sons former girlfriend and him, she actually called just hoping to get him in trouble, and was very upset to find that law enforcement could not do anything about the situation, both the PWC officer and the PWC Deputy were very upset with her and told her so.

I do thank everyone for the advice for further situations. I guess being a former LEO in Florida I tend to be a little more willing to respond to certain request such as to step outside, or even invite them in. But after Users advice, I am pretty sure I will be much more careful about inviting them in.

Click to expand...

I've been quiet on this because it was a touchy situation.
Bottom line is......,I'm glad it wasn't me and you handled better than most would have!

ed said:

Why?

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As to why ask if you can record...

Well, it shows you are savvy, you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...

If it's a consensual stop (as here) and you ask if you can record and he says no, then I'm saying 'have a nice day' and shutting the door, after giving him my lawyer's business card.

What was your reason for asking, Ed? Maybe I'm missing your point.

Badger Johnson said:

As to why ask if you can record...

Well, it shows you are savvy, you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...

If it's a consensual stop (as here) and you ask if you can record and he says no, then I'm saying 'have a nice day' and shutting the door, after giving him my lawyer's business card.

What was your reason for asking, Ed? Maybe I'm missing your point.

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We're talking about Va Badger, not a two party state. Asking is an intimidating gesture sometimes but so is just recording it. You also get more if it's not announced.
Asking if you can record shows some reluctance and just gives the cop some wiggle room to intimidate you into not recording.

Badger Johnson said:

...you might be in a two-party state, it might be illegal if you're in Illinois...

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What state are you in, Badger?

If you're too scared to say (I see you left it out of your profile), that's okay.

DrMark said:

What state are you in, Badger?

If you're too scared to say (I see you left it out of your profile), that's okay.

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I'm not too scared to say, why do you ask?

user said:

Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

Secondly, don't go onto hostile territory (the sheriff's department for example) or even (as in this case) neutral territory. Stay on your own property, where your legal rights are strongest. But don't leave your door open, that's an invitation to the cop to enter.

Do be polite. Say, "No, thanks, I prefer to stay here." when asked if you'll go somewhere other than your own front porch.

Click to expand...

I think this is really good advice. I had a cop recently knock on my apartment door asking about my neighbor, and he wanted to come into my apartment. I declined and spoke to him in the hallway. I would never let them in voluntarily. I never really thought about the step off my territory to neutral territory aspects.

Badger Johnson said:

I'm not too scared to say, why do you ask?

Click to expand...

I see your posts in the VA forum sometimes.

I might lend them a little more credence if I knew the general area you're from -- the state, at least.

"Knock and Talk"

user said:

Very amusing. Good thing the cop was a level-headed guy.

Two suggestions: First, never invite law enforcement (or any agent of the state, including schoolteachers) into your home. Once you do that, it's open season on searching and seizing - when you allow them to come in, then they can go where they want, search what they want, and take what they want "as evidence".

Secondly, don't go onto hostile territory (the sheriff's department for example) or even (as in this case) neutral territory. Stay on your own property, where your legal rights are strongest. But don't leave your door open, that's an invitation to the cop to enter.

Do be polite. Say, "No, thanks, I prefer to stay here." when asked if you'll go somewhere other than your own front porch.

Click to expand...

"Knock and Talk" encounters can be terribly dangerous for any of the parties involved. The important fact to understand is that you are under no obligation to answer the front door. This includes cops, absent a warrant.

Remember, boys & girls:

[size=+1]If Called by a Panther, Don't Anther[/size]