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Thread: City as Property Owner banning Open Carry by non-permittee

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    City as Property Owner banning Open Carry by non-permittee

    Alot of municipalities are discussing carry bans. One of the positions I have seen is that they can ban Open Carry in Parks, etc if you do not have a permit. This is what they are citing.....
    943.13  Trespass to land.(1m) (b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    If our legisalators do not give 66.0409 some teeth, I see alot of lawsuits coming. Maybe that's the point, more revenue for laywers.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If our legisalators do not give 66.0409 some teeth, I see alot of lawsuits coming. Maybe that's the point, more revenue for laywers.
    Or cities really want to become poorer than they already are?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If our legisalators do not give 66.0409 some teeth, I see alot of lawsuits coming. Maybe that's the point, more revenue for laywers.
    66.0409 has nothing to do with this as 943.13 is a State Statute.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Alot of municipalities are discussing carry bans. One of the positions I have seen is that they can ban Open Carry in Parks, etc if you do not have a permit. This is what they are citing.....
    Can you cite any of these cases?

    Tell me what city bans open carry in thier parks and I will be there, with food and a frisbie.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-15-2011 at 04:41 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    66.0409 has nothing to do with this as 943.13 is a State Statute.
    Sorry, I understand what you mean. Your right..

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Sorry, I understand what you mean. Your right..
    For those of us who do not understand, how can a city ban OC?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Alot of municipalities are discussing carry bans. One of the positions I have seen is that they can ban Open Carry in Parks, etc if you do not have a permit. This is what they are citing.....
    943.13  Trespass to land.(1m) (b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.

    Interesting........but I think it's a FAIL. We all know that the intent behind this statute is to protect private property owners and not collectively owned property. If knowing isn't enough, the wording itself clearly implies that there is one (1) owner/occupant who get's do decide what is allowed on his/her property. They may try to use this statute but I think that ultimately they, being a government entity, must fall under 66.0409.

    Furthermore, the propery is controlled by the government where the 2A/14A applies specifically. Besides the "sensitive places" outlined in Heller, one of which this is not, the government has little power to control this. It would be found unconstitutional on these grounds IMHO.

    The local communtities seem to forget that we can now file a federal suit; with fee-shifting provisions, under 2A/14A when before it was a puny state suit that we had to pay for. The fact that we had to pay for the whole deal before is what I think slowed the advancement of gun rights pre-heller. They are REALLY going to pay $$$$ if they keep this garbage up.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 09-15-2011 at 04:54 PM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If our legisalators do not give 66.0409 some teeth, I see alot of lawsuits coming. Maybe that's the point, more revenue for laywers.
    66.0409 has nothing to do with this as 943.13 is a State Statute.66.0409 has nothing to do with this as 943.13 is a State Statute.
    Sorry, I understand what you mean. Your right..
    I just realized that you are right. It is preempted for everywhere but possibly Parks in regards to the carry of firearms.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Why would parks be an exception?
    A. Gold

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    For those of us who do not understand, how can a city ban OC?
    I brought up 66.0409.

    What I said I understand about is his point that 66.0409 does not apply to 943.13 because 943.13 is a State Statute, not a local ordinance or resolution.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I just realized that you are right. It is preempted for everywhere but possibly Parks in regards to the carry of firearms.
    Did you just realize that I was right about you being right? That's funny.

    But if they use 943.13 instead of an local ordindance or resolution, then they get around 66.0409, but they still have the problem that nothing in 943.13 applies to public land, only public buildings only if you are armed.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Sorry, I understand what you mean. Your right..
    Elkhorn, WI has a city park ban. I tried getting it dropped when they got rid of some other ordinances but they said the state park ban allowed them to keep it.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Can you cite any of these cases?

    Tell me what city bans open carry in thier parks and I will be there, with food and a frisbie.
    The suburbs around here are getting on the ban bandwagon.

    http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...oncealed-carry

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Freeking Liberal Sheep Local Law makers....November 1st they will be too scared to leave their homes..... because of the evil Gun Toters with CCW permits..soon they will say you can't carry on a public sidewalk because it's city owned

    Glad I bought a little 38 special, if they can't see it, it aint there....
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 09-15-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK21GB View Post
    Freeking Liberal Sheep Local Law makers....November 1st they will be too scared to leave their homes..... because of the evil Gun Toters with CCW permits..soon they will say you can't carry on a public sidewalk because it's city owned
    Fortunately the sidewalk is part of the public right-of-way. The reason that the sidewalk in front of your house is not "private" property is the same reason that the sidewalk in front of city hall is not City property and the sidewalk in front of a school is not part of school grounds.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Alot of municipalities are discussing carry bans. One of the positions I have seen is that they can ban Open Carry in Parks, etc if you do not have a permit. This is what they are citing.....
    OK, Who is the owner, lets ask them?

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Can you cite any of these cases?

    Tell me what city bans open carry in thier parks and I will be there, with food and a frisbie.
    Verona, WI - Fireman's Park is posted.
    Love to have ya. I'll cook the burgers.
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcrewUH60 View Post
    Verona, WI - Fireman's Park is posted.
    That's of uncertain legality right now. As of November 1st it will be absolutely illegal, except for posted buildings.
    A. Gold

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    That's of uncertain legality right now. As of November 1st it will be absolutely illegal, except for posted buildings.
    Are you saying to be patient as WCI would be unsympathetic with an incident right now?

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    That's of uncertain legality right now. As of November 1st it will be absolutely illegal, except for posted buildings.
    If a city can ban carry in public parks (legally) then why hasn't Madiston banned Open Carry on ALL city "owned" "public" property?
    Doesn't make sense that the state preemption laws prevent political subdivisions from making more restrictive laws, but yet the political subdivisions can do it anyway?
    "In a court trial half the lawyers are wrong." - Captain Nemo

    "[There is] a duty in refusing to cooperate in any undertaking that violates the Constitutional rights of the individual. This holds in particular for all inquisitions that are concerned with the private life and the political affiliations of the citizens." - Albert Einstein

    gunowners.org ~ lp.org ~ downsizedc.org ~ oathkeepers.org ~ campaignforliberty.com/usa/WI/ ~ goooh.com

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcrewUH60 View Post
    Verona, WI - Fireman's Park is posted.
    Love to have ya. I'll cook the burgers.
    Is it just Firearm's Park, and not all of them?

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Is it just Firearm's Park, and not all of them?
    great question. Research is in order. I will go to Veteran's Park tomorrow and advise. [sarcasm] I wouldn't imagine a place named "Veteran's Park" would be posted..... [/sarcasm] Neither park is within 1000' ft of a school - just to get that out there.

    i'll try to get pictures of the signs at the different parks. I have a Zombie hunter shotgun (IAC Hawk 12ga with Ghost Sights) being delivered to my FFL tomorrow, so these tasks will be prioritized, of course.
    "In a court trial half the lawyers are wrong." - Captain Nemo

    "[There is] a duty in refusing to cooperate in any undertaking that violates the Constitutional rights of the individual. This holds in particular for all inquisitions that are concerned with the private life and the political affiliations of the citizens." - Albert Einstein

    gunowners.org ~ lp.org ~ downsizedc.org ~ oathkeepers.org ~ campaignforliberty.com/usa/WI/ ~ goooh.com

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Are you saying to be patient as WCI would be unsympathetic with an incident right now?
    Not saying that, because WCI has been looking at park bans with a very critical eye for a long time. I'm just saying that any hope of legality on the part of a local municipality for banning firearms in their parks is dead in the water as of November 1. They can only choose to, stupidly, post buildings.
    A. Gold

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    Do any of these local elected idiots employ any attorneys for their city/town boards? If they want to ban CC in their buildings, all they have to do is post signs. A local ordinance banning carry anywhere that Act 35 does not specifically list as prohibited isn't worth the paper it's written on. Act 35 and statute 66.0409 spells out what they can, and more importantly, what they cannot do... and they cannot enact any ordinances more stringent than state statutes, that are enforcible. State statutes do not (as of Nov. 1st) prohibit any person with a CC permit from carrying in state parks (and nothing in Act 35 requires concealment). If the state does not prohibit licensed carry in it's parks, neither can any city/town/county. But because the state statutes (will) only allow carry in state parks by licensed people, as far as they can legally go is banning open carry by unlicensed persons in local parks.

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