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Fredericksburg City at it again with CHP requirements

user

Accomplished Advocate
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Feb 12, 2009
Messages
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Northern Piedmont
1) Your location says, "King George". So why are you at the F'burg Cthse? You know you don't have to renew where you first got the permit, right?

2) File the application and get a file-stamped copy. Tell them you insist on filing, and that you have the right to file. If the application is not complete, that's for someone else to decide, later, they don't have the right under Virginia law to refuse the filing.

3) Be sure to note the date and time of the attempt to file. You have a limited window of time in which to apply for the renewal without having to reapply from scratch.

4) Want I should file a petition for writ of mandamus to require to clerk to accept the filing?
 

CaptainCharles

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2006
Messages
70
Location
Fredericksburg City, Virginia, USA
1) Your location says, "King George". So why are you at the F'burg Cthse? You know you don't have to renew where you first got the permit, right?

2) File the application and get a file-stamped copy. Tell them you insist on filing, and that you have the right to file. If the application is not complete, that's for someone else to decide, later, they don't have the right under Virginia law to refuse the filing.

3) Be sure to note the date and time of the attempt to file. You have a limited window of time in which to apply for the renewal without having to reapply from scratch.

4) Want I should file a petition for writ of mandamus to require to clerk to accept the filing?

Moved to F'burg city in march. Havent updated ocdo profile yet, but will. Thanks for bringing it to my attention sir.

The Deputy Clerk accepted the application, so, dont think # 4 is needed. But, thank you for the offer.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
From everything I've read so far you have been dealing with a Deputy Clerk - AKA a flunky. You need to speak to the actual Clerk. Regardless of her plans to retire at the end of this term she can still be held civially (and possibly criminally) liable for not performing her job properly, or for allowng her hired help to perform their jobs improperly.

I would suggest a scheduled appointment with her to explore the matter and see if she will agree that there needs to be some clarification of the law and procedures for her Deputy Clerk.

As for your renewal application - wait to see what happens, Either you get renewed without submitting new fingerprints or you request an ore tenus hearing before the Circuit Court Judge. Show up, show him the law and ask him to sign your CHP and hand it over, or officially deny the application. If he does not sign it because he says you need to submit fingerprints, you file a complaint with the Secretary of the Supreme Court. If he denies the application you go hire an attorney for the appeal.

stay safe.
 

fjpro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
280
Location
North Carolina
Excellent

Spotsylvania (outskirts of F-burg) doesn't require prints.

In fact I had to go over to the courthouse and pick mine up because the slovenly beyot...er, lovely public servant was too busy playing Solitai...er, doing important gubmint work and chatting with her cubi...er with the POTUS on the red phone, (yeah that's it) to bother to mail it - it had been approved and had been sitting in her out basket for 10 days. (it was the last day of max period they have to respond)

I got there and said 'I just called...' and she goes and gets it and kinda tosses it at me and goes back to chatting. Didn't ask for an ID. Could have been anyone. So much for need for identifying the permit holder.


:rolls eyes:

You are too much, my friend. I hope you don't mind me calling you my friend. We are!!! I enjoy your humor while making a great point.
 

TFred

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Oct 13, 2008
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I just now saw that the code that authorizes localities to require fingerprints also specifically prohibits them from requiring fingerprints for renewals.

I'd be tempted (although I wouldn't do it) to hold up my "existing" permit for them to see and ask the deputy clerk if "this was a figment of my imagination?"

:)

TFred


§ 15.2-915.3. Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit.

Notwithstanding § 15.2-915, a county or city may by ordinance require any applicant for a concealed handgun permit to submit to fingerprinting for the purpose of obtaining the applicant's state or national criminal history record; however, such ordinance shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308.​
 

TheEggman

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
174
Location
, Virginia, USA
Just Renewed in Stafford County

I moved to Stafford Co. from Alex, so my permit had one address and my application another. As with almost every interaction I've had with the government here in Stafford Co, I got a smile, a thank you and that was it. A week and a half later I got the call that my new permit was ready. No hassle, no big deal.
 

Toad

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
387
Location
, Virginia, USA
Regardless of the outcome this problem needs to be permanently corrected to alleviate this locality's extra legal burden placed upon other people who don't necessarily know better. While we may have a firmer understanding of the law that doesn't automatically mean that all potentially affected citizens do as well.
 

jnojr

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
42
Location
Reston, VA
I don't know how much the City Council can help. The fingerprint requirement was probably enacted well before any of the current council members were elected, and the current council does not appear to have any gun-centric folks on it. (None that I have been able to tell are either adamantly "pro" or "anti", they seem like the vast majority of folks, for whom gun issues are just not on their every-day radar.)

My impression is that if you involve them with this, most, if not all of them will scratch their head and wonder what to do with this?

IMO, it would be a good idea to get the City Council to align their city policies with state law.

Too bad we don't have the new Florida law, which provides for civil fines payable by individuals for trying to implement or keep ordinances contrary to state law. I just love reading the articles where they're crying tears of blood... while they rush to repeal the illegal rules! :D
 

Blk97F150

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Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
Nothing yet. Have the receipt from the Clerk's office, and they cashed the check, so just waiting now. ( Is it 45 business days, or 45 calendar days as far as issuing the permit?)

Virginia code 18.2-308 says "45 days"... it does not say 'business days'.....


If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and mail or send via electronic mail a copy of the certified application to the applicant within five business days of the expiration of the 45-day period.
 

user

Accomplished Advocate
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Feb 12, 2009
Messages
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Location
Northern Piedmont
Except that, if the last day of the forty-five day period ends on a Saturday, Sunday or legal holiday, then the period expires on the next day on which the clerks' offices are normally open. Va. Code section 1-210.

Odd thing, though, there are some clerks' offices that are closed on federal holidays, even though those aren't necessarily "legal holidays" in Virginia. Va. Code section 2.2-3300. I don't know whether the Executive Secretary of the Supreme Court has authorized such closures or not.
 

TFred

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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Fredericksburg Circuit Court Clerk candidates respond

As we've noted, the current Clerk of the Court does not appear to be seeking reelection, and there are two candidates for the office.

I decided to pose identical questions to each candidate, in short, referring them to read the situation posted here and inviting them to respond.

I received a reply from both.

The first reply was from Jeff Small:

Super interesting issue. I am a prosecutor and work for Mrs. Jenkins our Commonwealth's Attorney and do recommend the person seek an opinion from the Commonwealth's Attorney who although I can't speak for may offer guidance. Mrs. Jenkins is very friendly and is most interested in representing her constituency. Her office number is 372-1040. If elected and your friend still has this issue here is how I will handle it:

I will consult with the City Attorney to find out if such a City ordinance exists and if so the legality of it if it contradicts a state statute. I will also contact the Commonwealth's Attorney in town and the attorney general's office for an opinion. Finally, I will talk to the judge and contact other Clerk's in the state to see how they handled similar issues. This is the job of the Clerk, not to be passed onto the customer or applicant. It is a simple and speedy process that should amount to a resolution. I am not an expert on the issue and cannot predict an outcome either way, only that I will ensure one and as quickly as possible.

Please feel free to contact me and by all mean please bring this issue to the Commonwealth's Attorney and the City Attorney. Most important as the elected official I will communicate directly with the applicant and work to help if a deputy Clerk is unable to. I hope this was helpful and I can count on your vote this fall.

Jeff Small

And today I received this response from Dennis Ahearn:

Mr. TFred,

You have asked me to respond to your concern with how the staff of the Office of the Clerk of the Circuit Court for Fredericksburg handled your application for renewal of a permit to lawfully carry a concealed weapon. This response is not legal advice and my response does not create an attorney client relationship. The following is my interpretation of the relevant statute, Code of Va. Section 18.2-308.

Subsection D sets out the requirement for an application for a five year permit. The application must be made under oath. If there is a local ordinance requiring finger printing, it must be complied with. However, It goes on to state that if an applicant has an existing permit, a local ordinance cannot require finger printing.

Based on my interpretation, as Clerk of the Circuit Court, I would not require fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing permit.

Dennis E. Ahearn, Esq.

I would like to thank both candidates for providing a timely reply, and express my appreciation for their willingness to respond to this issue.

TFred

P.S. I have referred both candidates to this thread, should they wish to add any further discussion.

ETA: Update: I wanted to stop back by this thread to say that after spending the past several weeks evaluating information, reading lots of letters, watching interviews, and talking to people, I have decided to support Jeff Small for the clerk of the court.

As I noticed at the beginning, neither candidate is inherently unqualified for the position. But after my time spent studying the issues, including seeking guidance from our resident legal guru on what one should look for in a clerk, I'm convinced Mr. Small is the better candidate.

Even though both candidates are lawyers, that is not a requirement for the job, in fact several nearby court clerks are very well respected for their well-run offices, and they are not lawyers. I believe Mr. Small's additional experience in running a customer service oriented business will be a great asset to the job.

At face value, Mr. Ahearn's answer to our question is what we wanted to hear. That wasn't hard to deduce from the context of the question. Mr. Small's answer is not incorrect, but is an answer that tells me he is willing to be sure he gets it right.

One factor that settled my decision is the fact that Mr. Small has spent a substantial amount of time volunteering in Spotsylvania's clerk's office. He has stated that he didn't want the city taxpayers to pay for his on-the-job training, so he spent his own time learning the job, before he gets the job. That was a big indicator that he was all in for this campaign.

TFred
 
Last edited:

peter nap

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Oct 16, 2007
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Valhalla
Well done TFred!
If they visit the thread, good answers, a tad more non committal than I'd like but better than many.
 

Baked on Grease

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Sterling, Va.
As we've noted, the current Clerk of the Court does not appear to be seeking reelection, and there are two candidates for the office.

I decided to pose identical questions to each candidate, in short, referring them to read the situation posted here and inviting them to respond.

I received a reply from both.

The first reply was from Jeff Small:



And today I received this response from Dennis Ahearn:



I would like to thank both candidates for providing a timely reply, and express my appreciation for their willingness to respond to this issue.

TFred

P.S. I have referred both candidates to this thread, should they wish to add any further discussion.

My take on those responses:
On Jeff Smalls letter, it seems almost like a form letter or campaign platitude by any politician. While he espouses alot of happy feeling and good will, nothing in his letter is definate except two things; the phone number for the local CA, and the statute he cites. He states what YOU should do to resolve the situation while saying he promises to help along the way.

Dennis Ahearn on the other hand goes straight to the statute and gives his personal interpretation of the language within. He states exactly what he would do as Clerk if this situation pops up under his watch, which seems to abide by state law.


Am I mistaken in my take on their responses? Please enlighten me, as from this on response I can see a winner.



Sent using tapatalk
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Wow,

Thanks TFred!

Still waiting on a response here from the Court. ( Although, they did send a letter stating I left my weight off of the application, and needed it to "complete the permit")

IMO you are lucky that the did not tell you that the application was not complete and they could not process until you submitted a proper application with all of the information required. Think they could have restarted the clock when you filled out the missing info.
 
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