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Thread: DOJ Admin Code

  1. #1
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    DOJ Admin Code

    Hello all,

    So I am the guy, and attorney (former state prosecutor and I've spent time in the court of appeals and while there did work on firearms law), with connections within the DOJ committee who is putting together the admin code, training course, etc. I am also the guy who spoke with Interceptor Knight: so whatever crap you're giving him should be retrained here.

    Some short run downs.

    1) Whatever any class/organization has issued as far as certificates goes, won't cut it. Period. Classes will need to reissue new certificates when the time comes because the DOJ will be requiring a certificate with some very specific language making reference to law that has not been drafted yet. This should, and almost certainly will, be done well in advance to allow time for the courses to go about this reissuing process in time for folks to apply on November 1. The administrative code should be quite clear as to what these certificates require and the DOJ is planning on posting a 'model certificate' on their site.

    2) While the DOJ is putting together a course of their own, it is not mandatory that private instructors follow this. The only people who will be required to follow it are the DOJ instructors who may add to it, but not subtract from it. So AACFI et al, can still keep going with their own courses.

    3) There is going to be paperwork and fun things to come on who is a 'certified instructor' and also what constitutes a 'national or state' organization. (IE, If I pay my $100+ with the Wisconsin dept of financial institutions and incorporate as "Neoinarien's International Academy of Firearm Safety and Training", and then issue myself a 'license' to be a 'certified instructor' it will probably not fly to meet the criteria on that section of the training requirement; likewise people who I 'certify' as having passed my class are almost certainly going to be pretty angry when they find out their certificates aren't worth the paper they are printed on and not much can happen to change or fix that).

    4) There will be a minimum hours requirement for what a course must have, and a component of that will be mandatory in person training. So 15 minutes on the internet with a beer in hand getting 'certified' as someone who has passed a class will not cut it. Without getting into specifics as to how I am reaching this number, it appears this hours requirement will be around 4-5 hours. There may be a portion of this time where internet training is accepted. Remains to be seen on that as there is internal debate on point.

    Now, whatever criticism you have of the above do not direct at me because I am just trying to help things out as a pro 2nd amendment attorney. I have done this footwork on my own time without getting paid.

    Also remember: my sources are doing this as a favor in part to me. Do not ask me to reveal any sources because I am not going to.

    If you want to discount the above or anything else as just internet crap, go ahead: given the amount of misinformation on legal topics I see on internet firearm boards I would hardly blame you (which is in part why I don't post because I got tired, on another forum, of being 'corrected' by "internet attorneys" who would delight in telling me how things 'really' work at the DA's office, criminal procedure, etc).

    Feel free to fire away with questions. Also, I invite people to call and chat or to stop by my office (I am based in Waukesha right across the street from the courthouse) for some free updates, etc (though this is being provided as a concerned citizen, not as an attorney: there will not be any attorney client relationship established unless we expressly discuss that). Message me for my contact info and I'll try to get back to you in between court and clients.

    Thanks guys.

    Tom/neo


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    I talked to the founder of ArmedBadger.com today. Great guy and I'm sure he runs a great site. He wrote a blurb about our talk on his forum.

    http://www.armedbadger.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=912
    Last edited by neoinarien; 09-16-2011 at 09:54 PM. Reason: Threw on the end stuff

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    I have a permit from MI while i was still a resident there and I plan on using that for a WI permit... but I find it rediculous that my certificate of my NRA personal defense in the home or whatever it is called used to get that permit....would not be accepted.

    same thing to me

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    What a load of crap.

    Nice. Thanks Walker you backstabbing SOB.
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    So glad I'm getting my Utah permit so I can use that as proof of training and not have to deal with all of this garbage. It's disgusting how much red tape and political garbage is getting in the way of this bill, including cities/towns "banning" weapons everywhere they can, and trying to use loopholes to ban public grounds too.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    What a load of crap.

    Nice. Thanks Walker you backstabbing SOB.
    Not just him, but everyone that that changed SB93 from what it was to what it is.
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    1) Whatever any class/organization has issued as far as certificates goes, won't cut it. Period. Classes will need to reissue new certificates when the time comes because the DOJ will be requiring a certificate with some very specific language making reference to law that has not been drafted yet. This should, and almost certainly will, be done well in advance to allow time for the courses to go about this reissuing process in time for folks to apply on November 1. The administrative code should be quite clear as to what these certificates require and the DOJ is planning on posting a 'model certificate' on their site.
    With all due respect to the OP, this is BS. The statute is already quite clear on what is acceptable proof. By insisting on specific requirements on a certificate they are overstepping the statute. I'm thinking somebody is going to need to push this issue.

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    We should flood JB Van Hollens office calls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    What a load of crap.

    Nice. Thanks Walker you backstabbing SOB.
    This is a very standard, though understandably undesirable for those who are unfamiliar with the gears of legislation, way of how things get done. If the legislature had to figure out every practical detail on laws passed you would likely arrive at far less pleasant outcomes than drawing rules and handing it to whatever bureau or agency is responsible for the implementation.

    Just a thought.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    We should flood JB Van Hollens office calls.
    Over an anonymous post in the Internet?

    The idea that there HAS to be specific language with reference to the law on a training certificate is silly at best. No hunters education certificate, no NRA course, no anything that is acceptable under the law has that language on it. So you think the DNR is going to reissue 20 year-old training certificates with some new wording on it to satisfy DOJ? I wouldn't hold my breath.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    ... So you think the DNR is going to reissue 20 year-old training certificates with some new wording on it to satisfy DOJ? I wouldn't hold my breath.
    Once again, the Hunter Safety certificate past or present will be accepted with no modifications or additional requirements because the Hunter Safety is already a State Administered program whose content is State Mandated. There is no reason for a new certificate since the class requirements are already Statutory. 29.591 dictates what a WI Hunter Safety program MUST contain.


    a. The hunter education program established under s.
    29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established
    by another state, country, or province and that is
    recognized by the department of natural resources

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Over an anonymous post in the Internet?

    The idea that there HAS to be specific language with reference to the law on a training certificate is silly at best. No hunters education certificate, no NRA course, no anything that is acceptable under the law has that language on it. So you think the DNR is going to reissue 20 year-old training certificates with some new wording on it to satisfy DOJ? I wouldn't hold my breath.

    I do not believe, reflecting on my conversation with the DOJ official, that the DNR certificate will need to be modified in anyway, shape or form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    With all due respect to the OP, this is BS. The statute is already quite clear on what is acceptable proof. By insisting on specific requirements on a certificate they are overstepping the statute. I'm thinking somebody is going to need to push this issue.
    No, they are not.

    The DOJ concedes that they cannot mandate curriculum for anyone that is not DOJ ceritified. When they say they are currently in the rule-making process and is evaluating what information will be required on the certificate to substantiate proof of training, I believe that have the authority to do so. The DOJ is full of lawyers.

    I implore you read this document on Administrative Rule Making. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/gw/gw_21.pdf

    Lets look at 175.60(2)(b) again.
    175.60 (2)(b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content of a license.

    So what are we talking about here?

    The issuance of a license.
    The scope of a license.
    The effect of a license.
    The content of a license.

    None of that applies to a copy of a document or affidavit submitted as proof of training in the application process. If it does, tell me how and provide a citation.

  14. #14
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoinarien View Post
    I do not believe, reflecting on my conversation with the DOJ official, that the DNR certificate will need to be modified in anyway, shape or form.
    Or an NRA Certificate?

  15. #15
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoinarien View Post
    1) Whatever any class/organization has issued as far as certificates goes, won't cut it. Period. Classes will need to reissue new certificates when the time comes because the DOJ will be requiring a certificate with some very specific language making reference to law that has not been drafted yet. This should, and almost certainly will, be done well in advance to allow time for the courses to go about this reissuing process in time for folks to apply on November 1. The administrative code should be quite clear as to what these certificates require and the DOJ is planning on posting a 'model certificate' on their site.
    I have been saying pretty much the same thing. The DOJ cannot mandate curriculum, but through the Adminstrative Rule Process, the can mandate what information has to be on the certificate. And if you have a certificate that does not meet the standard, all the instructor/organization has to do is re-issue a certificate that does meet the standard set by the DOJ.

    Many people were saying that the 'training' would be no good, where in fact, in can only be the certificate that is questionable.

    But I do have a question. Does the NRA now have to make specific training certificates for WI residents?

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    Only one comment. The following is from the DNR web site. Doesn't say you have to spend 4 hours taking the CD/Internet course. In fact no class time is required at all for the test out pilot program. So how can the DoJ dictate that a course must have a minimum amount of time? In my opinion the DoJ can't demand more rigid training requirements than those required in ss175.60. It's rule making authority can't transcend state law.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    CD-ROM/Internet Hunter Education Courses
    The Department offers an optional method of certification for those that prefer a program other than the traditional hunter education course. If you would like to attend one of these courses, you must:

    Pre-register with the instructor who is holding an Internet/CD-ROM certification field day course. As soon as an instructor plans a course, we will post it on our Upcoming Classes right away. TYPE: HUNTER CD/INTERNET. (If you leave the county blank, it will display all classes being held throughout Wisconsin. If you want to search only your county, enter your county in the County Search Field.)
    The instructor will advise you where to obtain either the CD-ROM (if you do not have internet access) or provide you the internet address for the book portion of the course. You must complete the CD-ROM or Internet course before attending the field day.
    Print the quizzes and bring them with you to the field day.
    Attend the special field day specifically designed for this program. At the conclusion of the field day, you will take two exams; one written, and one practical.

    Safety Education Course Requirement:
    Prior to Class
    You must obtain a DNR Identification number

    This nine-digit number must be assigned to you by the DNR
    It must be unique, you cannot use another person's number or you will not receive your certificate.
    Call 1-888-936-7463 or visit a DNR Service Center to obtain your unique number.
    If you cannot remember your number or are unsure if you have an ID number assigned to you, please call 1-888-936-7463 and we will look it up for you.
    During Class
    You will be required to provide your DNR ID number to the instructor. Online classes also require you to provide your DNR ID number.

    After Successfully Completing the Exam
    We will use the name and address linked to your DNR ID number to send your safety certificate.
    You will use this number for all DNR business (licences, recreational vehicle registrations, other safety courses, etc.).
    Keep your address current with the DNR by calling 1-888-936-7463, or updating it through our Online Licensing Center

    Note: The toll-free number is available from 7 a.m.- 10 p.m. every day.




    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Test-Out Pilot Program for Hunter Education Certification


    The Department of Natural Resources is conducting a pilot project to offer an optional method of certification for those who are unable to attend a Hunter Education course. If you are interested in ‘testing-out’ of the Hunter Education program, you must:

    BEFORE THE TEST-OUT EXAM:

    Sign up: Pre-register with the Recreational Safety Warden (RSW) holding the test-out exam. When an RSW schedules a test-out, it will be posted on this test-out webpage. The test-out exam will be held at a public facility between a given set of hours. Attendance is limited. You must pre-register, and get confirmation that you are registered to take the test-out exam.
    Study: Studying for the test-out exam is on your own and is highly recommended. During the Fall 2010 Test-Out Pilot Program only one-third of the people who took the Hunter Education test-out exam passed! The exam is mostly fill-in-the blank and multiple choices, with a few true/false questions. There is no 'word pool' for the fill-in-the-blank questions. Some of the blanks need a word while others may need a phrase. There is also a sample exam available. The sample test shows the type of questions you can expect to see on the test-out exam. The questions on the sample exam are similar but different than those on the actual exam.
    Obtain your DNR Customer ID Number: You will need to get a Customer Identification Number before you can take the test-out exam. You may already have this number from having a fishing license or from registering a boat, snowmobile or an ATV. Call 1-888-936-7463 between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m. daily to get a Customer Identification Number or to check if you already have one.


    THE DAY OF THE TEST-OUT EXAM:

    Arrive on time: You will need to have three things with you when you show up to take the test-out exam. You must have personal identification. You must have your DNR Customer ID Number. And, you must pay the $10 test fee on site. If you are under 18, you will need a fourth item: a release signed by your parent or legal guardian allowing you to take the test-out exam.
    Score a passing grade: You will have an hour to finish the exam. The exam has 50 questions. You must answer correctly 45 out of the 50 to score the required 90% to pass. The actual test-out exam questions are based on the Hunting Regulations pamphlet, (The 2011 Hunting Regulations will be available after July 2011. Please view 2010 Regulations at this time.) which can be found here. Information also is found on the International Hunter Education Association’s online Hunter Education course. If you score 90% or better, you will leave the test site with a temporary Hunter Education Certificate. Look for a permanent certificate to be mailed to you within a few weeks.

    Upcoming Test-Out Classes
    PLEASE NOTE: Only one-third of the people who took the Hunter Education test-out exam pass! The exam is mostly fill-in-the-blank and multiple choice, with a few true/false questions. There is no ‘word pool’ for the fill-in-the-blank questions. Some of the blanks need a word while others may need a phrase. All of the exams have a total of 50 possible points, of which you need 45 to pass (90%). See the sample exam for a better idea of what the Test-Out exam is like. Click here to view the sample exam”

  17. #17
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    ...And if you have a certificate that does not meet the standard, all the instructor/organization has to do is re-issue a certificate that does meet the standard set by the DOJ..
    You do not even necessarily need a new certificate. The trainer could put a stamp or sticker on your certificate with the missing required information.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Once again, the Hunter Safety certificate past or present will be accepted with no modifications or additional requirements because the Hunter Safety is already a State Administered program whose content is State Mandated. There is no reason for a new certificate since the class requirements are already Statutory. 29.591 dictates what a WI Hunter Safety program MUST contain.
    Hunters safety is only one of many that are mentioned in the statute. Why would any of the others need a special certificate and not hunters safety?
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    Everything you posted seems consistent with what DOJ's said to date. It's not clear to me what you gain by sharing this info from your sources...you may have just unleashed a spitstorm on 'em. I wonder, though, isn't DOJ involving the Legislative author, Senator Galloway? Hard to imagine she'd go along with doing it quite the way you've outlined.

    I don't understand why DOJ is going to require trainers to issue Wisconsin-specific certificates. Couldn't the person applying for the permit affirm that their training met whatever standards DOJ sets?

    The bad news: There's no public input into the emergency rule. So anyone who wants to apply Nov. 1rst is going to have play along.

    The good news: Before the permanent rule takes effect, it has to go out for public hearing, clear the Governor's office and go through committees of the Legislature that can stop it cold and direct DOJ to revise it. That will take time. Unfortunately, in the meantime, the emergency rule stays in effect.

    I think that when the emergency rule comes out, if it has bad provisions people should contact the Governor and lawmakers right away, to pressure DOJ into correcting the problems when it proposes the permanent rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I have been saying pretty much the same thing. The DOJ cannot mandate curriculum, but through the Adminstrative Rule Process, the can mandate what information has to be on the certificate. And if you have a certificate that does not meet the standard, all the instructor/organization has to do is re-issue a certificate that does meet the standard set by the DOJ.

    Many people were saying that the 'training' would be no good, where in fact, in can only be the certificate that is questionable.

    But I do have a question. Does the NRA now have to make specific training certificates for WI residents?

    That's exactly where I'm coming from with my post above. I take the NRA Basic here in PA, you take the Basic in WI. It's the exact same class, but there is no reason for my instructor here in PA to put ANYTHING on the certificate about WI Rules. If I move to WI with my cert they have to accept it because it is the SAME class.

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    This isn't really a specific comment but I've been pondering the significance of all the chatter concerning training. It's obvious that the legislature put the training requirements into Act 35 to placate those legislators concerned about it and of course to give the governor the warm fuzzies. In doing so it made the requirements as minimum as could be expected. Look at the reality. Anyone with a hunters education certificate qualifies. That reaches out to about 1,000,000 hunters. Anyone that has had small arms training in the military, national guard or reserves qualifies (that qualification reaches back at least 66 years). How many millions of living persons does that cover? Anyone that has had military law enforcement or security training is qualified. Any persons that have attended an organational event i.e. project Appleseed qualifies. Anyone that has taken any of the NRA or NSSF courses qualifies (some of those go back 40 years). Anyone that has a outstate permit, current or expired, has complied with the training requirement (many members of this forum already have MN, MI,UT and/or FL permits). I don't have the foggiest idea how large the total number of already qualified persons is. I'm sure that it is thousands of times larger than the number of people that will apply for a permit. Certainly there will be some wanting a CC license that don't have qualified training, but I wonder how large that number really is statewide? I suspect the largest numberof not qualified persons fall into a certain nitche. Probably mostly young adults in the larger metropolitan areas. Females probably make up the highest number of unqualified perons statewide. Information coming from trainers and instructors that their course sign ups for voluntary training are very high, indicate that number will be down significantly by Nov. 1.


    Don't misunderstand my post. It does not imply that we should say it's not a significant problem and roll over and ignore it, especially when the DoJ seems to be perched on the tree above us with knife and fork in hand. I write it only to put some perspective to reality.

    My opinions.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Da Po-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Hunters safety is only one of many that are mentioned in the statute. Why would any of the others need a special certificate and not hunters safety?
    EXACTLY! ! ! !

    And who really can put much stock in heresay from someone who knows someone who supposedly talked to someone from the DOJ ?

    One would thing the DOJ would require confidentiality and NOT have someone on the inside yapping to someone who then blabs it all over the internet.

    Would be interesting to call the DOJ and ask them if someone there is telling others outside the department what will be required.

    I think I'll do that Monday.
    Last edited by Da Po-lock; 09-16-2011 at 08:25 PM.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    With all due respect to the OP, this is BS. The statute is already quite clear on what is acceptable proof. By insisting on specific requirements on a certificate they are overstepping the statute. I'm thinking somebody is going to need to push this issue.
    I do not believe that the OP is saying that the NRA, for example, has to change their certificates.

    Anyhow, I will be sending in the MD training and if they deny my permit, I will be suing and we will let a judge decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I do not believe that the OP is saying that the NRA, for example, has to change their certificates.

    Anyhow, I will be sending in the MD training and if they deny my permit, I will be suing and we will let a judge decide.
    but he is saying just that:

    1) Whatever any class/organization has issued as far as certificates goes, won't cut it. Period. Classes will need to reissue new certificates when the time comes because the DOJ will be requiring a certificate with some very specific language making reference to law that has not been drafted yet. This should, and almost certainly will, be done well in advance to allow time for the courses to go about this reissuing process in time for folks to apply on November 1. The administrative code should be quite clear as to what these certificates require and the DOJ is planning on posting a 'model certificate' on their site.

    NRA certs come from NRA Central...they are all the same no matter what state they are issued. DOJ wants "specific language" which means somebody is going to have to change the NRA certs.

  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    That's awesome. We will see if the DOJ can add to the law. I have most of my lawsuit thought out. Just need some specifics and a denial letter.

    I have already notified the DOJ that if they deny my application I will sue. The cool thing is I get to sue in my home county, not Dane county.

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