Smash and Grab in Tacoma

jt59 · Sep 16, 2011

In as many days, two of my aquaintences have experienced day-time S&G's while in the parking lot of Hooters on I-5 near 38th and in a private manufacturing company. Side and Back window's smashed and out...items taken: GPS, laptop, I-pod, and both had left wallets under the front seat. No guns in the cars and no firearms lost.

My question: If a person witnessed this event (class B felony) and under our statutes would:

A. A person be able to draw a firearm and hold a thief until police arrived (citizen arrest)?

OR

B. If it was that persons, personal vehicle and the thief turned and attacked, would the castle doctrine extend to the vehicle or would it be limited to the application of WA "no duty to retreat" and lethal force be an option in self defense in the commision of a felony as if it happend in your home?

IKYANL

hermannr · Sep 16, 2011

You may apprehend and hold a person that commits a felony IN YOUR PRESENCE. Yes, you can use your weapon to do this.

If the person(s) flee can you shoot them..I wouldn't. If they attack you, use your best judgement. Just no bullet holes back to front, they cause problems.

BigDave · Sep 16, 2011

As with anything, if you do not know the circumstances surrounding the seemingly smash and grab, it could be registered owner that locked themselves out and choose to smash instead of a locksmith.

Badger Johnson · Sep 16, 2011

Though it's difficult to keep in mind, we are not LEOs, and such losses are insured, and does not involve action of the Gravest Extreme towards your person or your loved one, then it's not a good idea to be making citizen's arrests using your CC firearm over property.

If you saw someone being raped, I think it would be ok to draw down to stop it, but not to chase the guy with your gun like Starsky&Hutch and try to apprehend him. Obviously, you'd want to ID them, especially if it was your wife or daughter.

Apply the 'Gravest Extreme' test. You walk by and see across the street a thief breaking into a stranger's car - is there extremely grave danger to YOU or your LOVED ONE(s)? No.

Now if your daughter was IN the car the BG was breaking into then yes, you may deploy your firearm and carefully defend her life. Otherwise, best to leave that arresting stuff to the police.

$.02

1245A Defender · Sep 17, 2011

well,,,

Very good response. Thank you Badger Johnson!

Since you post in many states, I will Ask you to tell me, What state do you live in?
Its a direct and simple request for information. if you want to be discrete, a PM to me would be fine, I can be discrete too.
Thanks in advance.

sirpuma · Sep 17, 2011

If more people would get involved and stop crime in the act then there would be a whole lot less crime. Don't just stand back and watch, or worse turn away. If you see a crime in action do something to stop it. A few years ago I was in Vantucky and driving through a Fred Meyer parking lot. I saw a few hispanic gang types hanging around a rather nice car and one had a slim jim in his hand. As I was driving up their lane I stopped next to them and stared at them for a few minutes. They hadn't broken in yet. So my wife rolled her window down and in a stern voice I said "Can I help you." They all took off running. I'm sure they probably broke into another vehicle later, but at least I prevented that crime from happening.

The one thing I hated the most about one of the security companies I worked for, they had a hands off/no action policy. Just make a report and file it with the police later. I say BS. If you can stop the crime, do so, whatever it takes.

And if I saw someone raping a woman or worse yet a child, I don't think I would just draw my sidearm and say stop. And if it was with a child, I don't think I would give any kind of warning.

Badger Johnson · Sep 17, 2011

sirpuma said:
If more people would get involved and stop crime in the act then there would be a whole lot less crime. Don't just stand back and watch, or worse turn away. If you see a crime in action do something to stop it. A few years ago I was in Vantucky and driving through a Fred Meyer parking lot. I saw a few hispanic gang types hanging around a rather nice car and one had a slim jim in his hand. As I was driving up their lane I stopped next to them and stared at them for a few minutes. They hadn't broken in yet. So my wife rolled her window down and in a stern voice I said "Can I help you." They all took off running. I'm sure they probably broke into another vehicle later, but at least I prevented that crime from happening.

Getting involved and stopping, reporting, being a good witness, yelling at some kids, all of the good. But here, we're talking about righteous use of a firearm which is a whole other kettle of fish.

As you said, your interruption of their break in prevented that one car from harm, but you probably just delayed the inevitable. Did you call 911 and make a report?

In the last example - a person being raped - you don't know the facts. What if the "rapist" is the person's legal spouse and you draw down and shoot the 'perp' and come to find out later there was the 'appearance' of a rape but in fact it was not, and the woman turns on you and presses charges and maybe even fabricates. Now you are charged with manslaughter and you only have your word to go against hers.

We simply don't know enough most times to jump in and use a FIREARM to prevent a crime or make a judgment about a good shoot. Of course, it's often a good idea just to 'show up' and yell or whip out your cell phone and most have little problem with that. We want to promote the idea that firearm use among citizens is level-headed, conservative and only used in the gravest extreme to protect your life and the life of your loved ones and NOT to go around being a vigilante.

$.02

deanf · Sep 17, 2011

My question: If a person witnessed this event (class B felony) and under our statutes would:

Class B Felony for theft with value over $5000
Class C Felony $750-$5000
Gross Misdemeanor below $750

Are you really going hang your hat on your incorrect understanding of state law when faced with a theft from vehicle in progress? Or on your no-so-credible ability to place a current market value on goods which you have not even seen?

Ajetpilot · Sep 17, 2011

Well said, Badger.

---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=47.415357,-122.593823

Wobbles · Sep 17, 2011

As was already stated, if there is no threat to life, I would be more inclined to call in and make a report. Though if it were my personal vehicle, I would intervine. I admit this is a double standard.

amzbrady · Sep 17, 2011

Wobbles said:
As was already stated, if there is no threat to life, I would be more inclined to call in and make a report. Though if it were my personal vehicle, I would intervine. I admit this is a double standard.

This is where a recorder is so awesome, a picture is worth a thousand words. Instead of trying to give a cop a verbal description of the guys trying to break into a car, you get get the officers email address and send him a copy of the crime in progress. As far as your own vehicle it is not a double standard. You know who has permission to have access to your vehicle. Just a car in a parking lot, you have no idea. What if someone just locked their keys in their car? I think if your going to intervene, start recording and ask if they have permission to break into that car and offer to call the local police for them. The local police will have a listing for licensed locksmiths in the area, and the ones they use, usually dispatch can forward the call to them.

hermannr · Sep 17, 2011

Badger Johnson;1612150 and such losses are insured said:
That is making a very big assumption Badger. I owned my own business for 10 year, and I was "self insured" as to my inventory, and would have liked any help stopping any robbery attempted on my property.

Most of my business life I worked for a small private custom design and manufacture company. I was in a position to know, they were also "self-insured".

Fire insurance, for the buildings? Yes, corporate liability insurance, Yes, inventory and equipment insurance...too expensive and difficult to determine loss.

In my work experience, I have worked for a total of 5 companies (Plus myself), all were self-insured for inventory and equipment...that makes a total of 6 out of 6 companies in my personal experience. (these were design and manufacturing, not retail)

I would bet most of the convience stores also do not insure their inventory. They write it off to "shrinkage", but that does not mean it does not come out of their pocket. I remember a cousin of mine going ballistic on an employee (also happened to be his SIL) for a case of cigarettes that was missing...he did own a convience store, and he did have to eat the loss.

Don't ever excuse someone else's loss because "they have insurance anyway"

Wobbles · Sep 17, 2011

amzbrady said:
This is where a recorder is so awesome, a picture is worth a thousand words. Instead of trying to give a cop a verbal description of the guys trying to break into a car, you get get the officers email address and send him a copy of the crime in progress. As far as your own vehicle it is not a double standard. You know who has permission to have access to your vehicle. Just a car in a parking lot, you have no idea. What if someone just locked their keys in their car? I think if your going to intervene, start recording and ask if they have permission to break into that car and offer to call the local police for them. The local police will have a listing for licensed locksmiths in the area, and the ones they use, usually dispatch can forward the call to them.

By "intervene" I meant drawing my weapon and potentially using deadly force. I should have been more clear on what I meant.
Another point to make is if that person with a slim jim is the rightful owner of the vehicle, drawing your weapon might trigger him to do the same. Concealed is concealed, remember. And looks can be deceiving. How many good kids do you know that wear their pants below their hind end and have a hot on the wrong way? The truth is, there's quite a lot.

Vitaeus · Sep 17, 2011

hermannr said:
That is making a very big assumption Badger. I owned my own business for 10 year, and I was "self insured" as to my inventory, and would have liked any help stopping any robbery attempted on my property.

Most of my business life I worked for a small private custom design and manufacture company. I was in a position to know, they were also "self-insured".

Fire insurance, for the buildings? Yes, corporate liability insurance, Yes, inventory and equipment insurance...too expensive and difficult to determine loss.

In my work experience, I have worked for a total of 5 companies (Plus myself), all were self-insured for inventory and equipment...that makes a total of 6 out of 6 companies in my personal experience. (these were design and manufacturing, not retail)

I would bet most of the convience stores also do not insure their inventory. They write it off to "shrinkage", but that does not mean it does not come out of their pocket. I remember a cousin of mine going ballistic on an employee (also happened to be his SIL) for a case of cigarettes that was missing...he did own a convience store, and he did have to eat the loss.

Don't ever excuse someone else's loss because "they have insurance anyway"

The issue at hand is the use of a FIREARM to intervene, property, though dear and hard to replace, is just that, property. We are delving into "what-if's" and may-be-so's.

amlevin · Sep 18, 2011

hermannr said:
Fire insurance, for the buildings? Yes, corporate liability insurance, Yes, inventory and equipment insurance...too expensive and difficult to determine loss.

In my work experience, I have worked for a total of 5 companies (Plus myself), all were self-insured for inventory and equipment...that makes a total of 6 out of 6 companies in my personal experience. (these were design and manufacturing, not retail)

I would bet most of the convience stores also do not insure their inventory. They write it off to "shrinkage", but that does not mean it does not come out of their pocket. I remember a cousin of mine going ballistic on an employee (also happened to be his SIL) for a case of cigarettes that was missing...he did own a convience store, and he did have to eat the loss.

You should have worked in the Retail Industry before making the above assumptions. Almost all Retail establishments of any size and "chain" convenience stores can determine any loss from theft easily. With modern technology they can track almost every item in their store. Why do you think that the Clerk scans each and every item when you go through check-out? It not only determines the price you'll pay but it updates the inventory levels and prepares a restocking order for the store.

Regular inventories are able to determine shrinkage. If a store is broken into a standard procedure is to conduct an inventory to determine the size of the theft unless specific items can be identified immediately as stolen.

Insurance for this is carried as part of the businesses comprehensive insurance. Deductibles are often set at levels equal to the usual shrinkage for the type of business to prevent excessive claims.

Self Insurance is usually only practiced by the extremely small businesses that don't use a Point of Sale computer system or the extremely large who will self insure for everything but major loss.

MSG Laigaie · Sep 18, 2011

Badger Johnson said
QUOTE]We want to promote the idea that firearm use among citizens is level-headed, conservative and only used in the gravest extreme to protect your life and the life of your loved ones and NOT to go around being a vigilante.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is good. I am not Paul Kersey

OlGutshotWilly · Sep 19, 2011

BigDave said:
As with anything, if you do not know the circumstances surrounding the seemingly smash and grab, it could be registered owner that locked themselves out and choose to smash instead of a locksmith.

This.^

0530, dark and cold in a business parking lot. My cars central locking activated when I stepped out of the car and shut the door, with the keys inside. Towing companies refused to come by saying they "didn't do that anymore". Too early for a locksmith and I had to catch a ferry to work.

Go out and find a big rock, came back and smashed a rear side window, reached in and unlocked the front door.

sudden valley gunner · Sep 19, 2011

If cops can investigate so can civilians. We are the law. Not encouraging rushing to judgement but being vigilant.

amlevin · Sep 19, 2011

OlGutshotWilly said:
This.^

0530, dark and cold in a business parking lot. My cars central locking activated when I stepped out of the car and shut the door, with the keys inside. Towing companies refused to come by saying they "didn't do that anymore". Too early for a locksmith and I had to catch a ferry to work.

Go out and find a big rock, came back and smashed a rear side window, reached in and unlocked the front door.

And then have your insurance company repair the window. If no insurance, just pick the cheapest window that you can repair yourself

Been there, done that, and have the tube of leftover glue as well.

Today, I own a car that won't activate the locks if the keys are still in the ignition.

Smash and Grab in Tacoma

jt59

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hermannr

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BigDave

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Badger Johnson

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1245A Defender

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sirpuma

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Badger Johnson

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deanf

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Ajetpilot

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Wobbles

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amzbrady

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hermannr

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Wobbles

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Vitaeus

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amlevin

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MSG Laigaie

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OlGutshotWilly

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sudden valley gunner

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amlevin

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