View Poll Results: How should I have handled it?

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16. You may not vote on this poll
  • After telling him you didn't want to talk, you should have had your wife drive away.

    4 25.00%
  • Jesus man! Just sit there and shut up.

    5 31.25%
  • Talk to him. You know he's going to ask for your information and stuff. Just go along with it.

    4 25.00%
  • Get out of the car and walk away. Just keep walking not saying a word to anyone.

    3 18.75%
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Thread: In Keeping With Their Word

  1. #1
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    In Keeping With Their Word

    Yesterday I was at Noble Park with my wife and son. My son loves the swing there so we put him in and let him swing for a good while. Afterwards, we put him in his stroller and went for a walk around the park. After about an hour or so we were finished and leaving. This is when an officer approached our car.

    Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?

    Me: Yes.

    Officer: Why do you mind?

    Me: Because we're leaving.

    Officer: Well can I ask you a question? What do you have on your side over there, sir?

    Me: Right now I don't have anything on my side.

    Officer: Did you have a gun when you were getting in your car, though?

    Me: Yeees.

    Officer: You're going to need to step out and talk with me.

    Me: No.

    Officer: Yes, sir. You're going to have to.

    Me: No.

    Officer: Yes, sir. You're going to have to.

    Me: No, I don't.

    Wife: It's legal.

    Officer: What was that?

    Wife: Just step out and talk to him. It's legal.

    Officer: All I want to do is just talk to you. You're not in any kind of trouble.

    Me: Okay, but what I'm telling you is we're in a hurry and we're leaving.

    Officer: Well here's the problem. Someone called in a complaint. So what I have to do is I actually have to check on you all. And talk to you all and make sure you're ok to carry a weapon.

    Me: Yeah. We're fine.

    Officer: You have to get out. (kind of chuckling) Can I explain why you have to?

    Me: Sure explain it.

    Officer: In the state of Kentucky when a cop gets out to you and they have to ask you your name and stuff and you deny them... I can actually arrest you for that, but I'm not going to do that.

    Me: What's the law?

    Officer: That is the law.

    Me: No, it's not.

    Officer: Yes, it is.

    Me: What's your reasonable suspicion to even question me?

    Officer: The fact I saw you get into a vehicle with a gun.

    Me: And that's illegal?

    Officer: If you're not allowed to carry a gun. Yes, sir, it is illegal.

    Me: Ok. What's your reasonable suspicion?

    Officer: Sir, you got into a car with a gun on your side. I don't have to have anything other than that to check your name.

    Me: (scoffing) Yeah, you do.

    Officer: (scoffing) No, I don't.

    Me: Yeeees. You do.

    Officer: No, sir, I don't.

    Me: Ok. Are you detaining me?

    Officer: Huh?

    Me: Are you detaining me?

    Officer: I am going to detain you right now if you don't cooperate.

    Me: That's not what I asked. Are you detaining me RIGHT now?

    Officer: I'm trying to do it the easy way.

    Me: We are doing it the easy way. The easy way is I leave and go on about my business, because I was doing nothing illegal.

    Officer: That's not going to happen.

    Me: That is going to happen.

    Officer: Okay.

    Wife: Just get out and talk to him.

    Officer: Go on and step out on that side for me, sir.

    Me: I'm not stepping out.

    Wife: Just talk to him. I'm not bailing you out of jail.

    Me (to my wife): You're not going to have to bail me out of jail.

    Wife: Just talk to him, because he will arrest you. (Almost in tears) And I can't deal with that.

    Officer: Alright step out of the car.

    Me (to officer): I'm not stepping out.

    Officer: You are going to step out or I'm going to pull you out.

    Wife (to me): Please get out of the car.

    Me: I'm not stepping out.

    Wife (to me): Please.

    Officer (to other officer): (inaudible) doesn't want to give us any id after I saw him get into a car with a gun.

    Wife: Please get out. I can't deal with it. (By this point I know not making it easier for my wife is making me look like an ass, but I'm stubborn.)

    Officer 2: What's your name, sir?

    Me: What's your name?

    Officer 2: Officer Wilbur with the police department.

    Me: Nice to meet you. I'm C.R. Pulley.

    Officer 2: Nice to meet you. You doing alright tonight?

    Me: I am. I was getting ready to leave. Minding my own business and he is trying to tell me I have to stop what I'm doing to talk with this gentleman.

    Officer 2: Well let me tell you what's going on.

    Me: I know what's going on.

    Officer 2: What's going on?

    Me: You saw me with a firearm and you don't like it so you're harassing me.

    Officer 2: No I'm not harassing you. A citizen out here called that there was a white man with a white tea shirt and blue jeans (Me: Uhuh) and with a female with a pink shirt (Me: Uhuh) walking around with a gun on his side. (Me: Uhuh) I know it's not illegal to do that, but we still have a duty to check into the call (Me: You checked. Ok and so you checked right? Am I doing anything illegal?)

    Officer 2: That's what I'm doing out here right now and when you start..... getting bent out of shape about it.

    Me: I wasn't getting bent out of shape about it. He asked if he could talk to me, and I said no, because we're leaving.

    Officer 2: Ok.

    Me: And he wants to make an issue that I have to sit here and talk to him. Which I don't because I'm not doing anything illegal I'm trying to get on my way and be on with my business.

    (At this time they decide they're not getting anywhere with me and decide to hassle my wife for her information.)

    Officer 2: Do yo.... Does she have an id, because she's driving a car we just want to make sure everything is good with it.

    Wife: Yes, I do.

    Officer 2: Ok just sit tight. We'll check her id and get you on your way. Do you have an insurance card as well?

    Wife: Yes, I do.

    (Afterwards I ask the first cop for his name and badge number and we go on our way.)
    Last edited by CharleyCherokee; 09-18-2011 at 02:58 PM.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  2. #2
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    My response is not on your poll: "If I am doing something illegal, write a citation and cite the law I am violating...then I will give you my ID. If you do not write a Citation, I will give no ID and we will be on our way." then silence.

  3. #3
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    You showed great resolve. I can't stand it when my woman starts to cry and I think I would have humored the cop for a minute.

    But then again, in TN, when the police say "let me see your papers," unfortunately we must do so. This is why I'm still hesitant to start OCing.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    ....

    But then again, in TN, when the police say "let me see your papers," unfortunately we must do so. This is why I'm still hesitant to start OCing.
    You mean to say that Terry does not apply in TN?

    I would have thought that Terry would have dealt with any state law that was more intrusive than what Terry provides for. But I'm willing to learn, if you can explain.

    And if Terry and its progeny does in fact control, it means that letting the po-lice [sic] get away with riding roughshod over your rights becomes something that needs to be countered by everyone. It does not mean that the only way to fight against the misbehavior of the cops is by being arrested and being aquitted at trial and then suing them. Or suing them for an injunction because you are afraid they would arrest you if you were to refuse to comply with their illegal demand.

    Start a publicity campaign. Start a letter-writing campaign to the Legislature to fix the law. Just don't let them stop you from exercising your rights out of fear of being hassled.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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  5. #5
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    To avoid this in the future:

    Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?

    You: Am I being detained?

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You mean to say that Terry does not apply in TN?

    I would have thought that Terry would have dealt with any state law that was more intrusive than what Terry provides for. But I'm willing to learn, if you can explain.

    And if Terry and its progeny does in fact control, it means that letting the po-lice [sic] get away with riding roughshod over your rights becomes something that needs to be countered by everyone. It does not mean that the only way to fight against the misbehavior of the cops is by being arrested and being aquitted at trial and then suing them. Or suing them for an injunction because you are afraid they would arrest you if you were to refuse to comply with their illegal demand.

    Start a publicity campaign. Start a letter-writing campaign to the Legislature to fix the law. Just don't let them stop you from exercising your rights out of fear of being hassled.

    stay safe.
    In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

    39-17-1351 (n) (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."
    Last edited by Overtaker; 09-18-2011 at 07:06 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    She did give her documents. I recall reading somewhere in the KRS that if you are operating a motor vehicle you are obligated to show your license upon request. I went searching through them last night, but couldn't find the KRS I was thinking of. I'll likely have another soon.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaker View Post
    To avoid this in the future:

    Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?

    You: Am I being detained?



    In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

    39-17-1351 (n) (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."
    And unless you are being detained, you still don't have to acknowledge the existence of the officer, even in Tennessee.

    There have been a couple times that I have been asked for my permit, and have NOT been detained... I just walked away.

  8. #8
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    i would have gave my license to him to check, then been on my way. the reason is after saying no for several minutes and then after another officer showing up, it would have got you out of there faster than just not doing anything. as your wife was checked anyways, so it would have been quicker to let them check. they just wanted to make sure you could carry a gun and wasn't a felon, they can't just take your word for it, just my 2 cents. thanks

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boomer92266 View Post
    i would have gave my license to him to check, then been on my way. the reason is after saying no for several minutes and then after another officer showing up, it would have got you out of there faster than just not doing anything. as your wife was checked anyways, so it would have been quicker to let them check. they just wanted to make sure you could carry a gun and wasn't a felon, they can't just take your word for it, just my 2 cents. thanks


    It wasn't about time. it was about exercising his rights. He wasn't doing anything wrong, so why are the cops stopping him? Police need to do their job and just that. Enforce LAWS, if no one is breaking the LAW then there is no reason to stop them.
    Last edited by Schlitz; 09-19-2011 at 01:14 AM.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  10. #10
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post

    It wasn't about time. it was about exercising his rights. He wasn't doing anything wrong, so why are the cops stopping him? Police need to do their job and just that. Enforce LAWS, if no one is breaking the LAW then there is no reason to stop them.
    Exactly. Why is it that on a forum that champions our rights so few actually get it?

    Sweet photochop too!.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  11. #11
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I don't think like they're targeting me specifically. However, because they couldn't enforce their law they're going to make it a hassle to exercise the right. I hate being lied to and even more so by a cop trying to get me to abdicate my rights. When his lies weren't working he then threatened to use force. These are things we shouldn't be tolerating. Everyone should be able to enjoy rights, but sadly only the ones that are educated and not easily intimidated enjoy them. That my friends is just a damned shame.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post

    Sweet photochop too!.
    ahthankyou
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    These are things we shouldn't be tolerating. Everyone should be able to enjoy rights, but sadly only the ones that are educated and not easily intimidated enjoy them. That my friends is just a damned shame.
    Exactly. I have had to stand my ground twice, once quoting the ruling from Terri vs Ohio when an officer tried to search me for OC, after I told him to "get your damn hand out of my pocket". Needless to say he was surprised, both at my statement and my knowledge, but he relented and did not threaten force. Not that it would have mattered.

    Keep up the libertarians charge my friend.

  14. #14
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaker View Post
    In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

    39-17-1351 (n) (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."
    This. IMO this law is unconstitutional but, as a broke college student, I have neither the time nor the money to fight it.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

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  15. #15
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    I certainly agree with gutshot boomer! I would have reacted the same way, no officer has a right to check your identification for exercising a legal right, at least not in our state. I find it absurd that this pd acts the way they do, it's incredibly shameful. I thank you Charley for not giving into the tyrant behavior, and standing your ground, even when being threatened with detainment. If only all were willing to stand their ground, episodes like this would be few and far between. We all know leo's don't like being wrong in public. What are you doing from here?, are you going to file a complaint?

  16. #16
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I am considering filing a complaint. I have all the information I need to do so.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

  17. #17
    Regular Member Thos.Jefferson's Avatar
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    I'd also press the issue about them taking your wife's information as well. While we have to show proper documentation while driving this is only true if a traffic infraction has been witnessed by the leo. What was the infraction? Sitting behind the wheel? This was clearly an illegal detainment. Do a foia request immediately and sue the pants off of the "officers.
    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

  18. #18
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    What He said right before me!

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    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thos.Jefferson View Post
    I'd also press the issue about them taking your wife's information as well. While we have to show proper documentation while driving this is only true if a traffic infraction has been witnessed by the leo. What was the infraction? Sitting behind the wheel? This was clearly an illegal detainment. Do a foia request immediately and sue the pants off of the "officers.
    Can u please Cite krs on this topic? I have searched everywhere, but all I can find is it being mandatory to surrender your license anytime you are driving a vehicle....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Can u please Cite krs on this topic? I have searched everywhere, but all I can find is it being mandatory to surrender your license anytime you are driving a vehicle....



    KRS 186.510 License to be in possession and to be shown on demand.

    The licensee shall have his or her license in his or her immediate possession at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall display it upon demand to the circuit clerk or examiner, a peace officer, a member of the Department of Kentucky State Police, or a field deputy or inspector of the Department of Vehicle Regulation or Transportation Cabinet or, pursuant to KRS 67A.075 or 83A.088, a safety officer who is in the process of securing information to complete an accident report. It shall be a defense to any charge under this section if the person so charged produces in court an operator's license, issued to him or her before his or her arrest and valid at the time of his or her arrest.

    Effective: June 26, 2007

    History: Amended 2007 Ky. Acts ch. 85, sec. 197, effective June 26, 2007. -- Amended 1994 Ky. Acts ch. 110, sec. 3, effective July 15, 1994. -- Amended 1976 (1st Extra. Sess.) Ky. Acts ch. 14, sec. 174, effective January 2, 1978. -- Amended 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 74, Art. IV, sec. 20(2), (9). -- Amended 1966 Ky. Acts ch. 255, sec. 171. -- Amended 1946 Ky. Acts ch. 127, sec. 6. -- Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 2739m-46.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thos.Jefferson View Post
    I'd also press the issue about them taking your wife's information as well. While we have to show proper documentation while driving this is only true if a traffic infraction has been witnessed by the leo. What was the infraction? Sitting behind the wheel? This was clearly an illegal detainment. Do a foia request immediately and sue the pants off of the "officers.
    Correct, even SCOTUS has ruled that you can't check for a DL without RAS.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    I think you handled the situation well. You'r wife trying to coax you to step out of the car was not helping your case. Since the caller clearly called about you alone, you need to be the one doing the talking. I realize she may make that easier said than done. Bravo.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaker View Post
    To avoid this in the future:

    Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?
    You: Am I being detained?

    In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

    39-17-1351 (n) (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."
    Pardon me for asking, but exactly what do the laws of Tennessee have to do with a citizen of Kentucky, being in Kentucky, interacting with a Kentucky police officer, and being subject to the laws of ..... Kentucky?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 09-20-2011 at 04:09 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I think ya done good. (May have to work on the wife supporting her Husband instead of her Servants, though.)



    Officer: All I want to do is just talk to you. You're not in any kind of trouble.
    Thank you for admitting that you have no reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, Officer. And since you have no suspicion then you have no authority to stop me. I'm going to need you to call your Supervisor and have him respond.


    Officer: In the state of Kentucky when a cop gets out to you and they have to ask you your name and stuff and you deny them... I can actually arrest you for that, but I'm not going to do that.
    Oh, but I insist that you follow the law, Officer. I need you to call your Supervisor and he and I need to have a chat about you refusing to do your job.


    Me: Are you detaining me?
    Officer: I am going to detain you right now if you don't cooperate.
    Me: That's not what I asked. Are you detaining me RIGHT now?
    Officer: I'm trying to do it the easy way.

    And RIGHT THERE, Officer Friendly has admitted that he's either grossly incompetent or trying to weasel his way into getting you to have a voluntary encounter when he knows he doesn't have authority for a Tier-2 or Tier-3 encounter.

    When our "public servants" try to muscle the citizen around wrongly, they need to be corrected. You don't let your kids get away with being mouthy and telling You what to do, do you?


    Oh, and now that you have their names, PLEASE take the time to actually go down to the police station and ask politely to speak with their supervisor, hopefully with their Captain. You may find that supervisors take a certain interest in what their officers do that cause complaints from law-abiding citizens. (I stopped at my local Sheriff's Office to speak about a problem I had with a Deputy and instead of a 15-30 minute talk with a Sergeant or Leiutenant, it wound up as almost an hour of very pleasant conversation with a Captain who was rather annoyed at one of his officers.)

    What's the worst that can happen? Ya not gonna get arrested nor nuthin'.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 09-20-2011 at 10:02 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    You are correct on all of the above. If I was driving it would have been a different situation. If you're curious to hear the actual audio I'd be glad to send it to you. It wouldn't have mattered what I said to her. My wife is VERY timid. So she would have caved no matter what. There was nothing reasonable about it. The car was started. We were still parked. They were just trying to save face. Now that I'm thinking about it... I even handed them her stuff through my window. So yeah..... They just did it to save face.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

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