In Keeping With Their Word

Yesterday I was at Noble Park with my wife and son. My son loves the swing there so we put him in and let him swing for a good while. Afterwards, we put him in his stroller and went for a walk around the park. After about an hour or so we were finished and leaving. This is when an officer approached our car.

Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?

Me: Yes.

Officer: Why do you mind?

Me: Because we're leaving.

Officer: Well can I ask you a question? What do you have on your side over there, sir?

Me: Right now I don't have anything on my side.

Officer: Did you have a gun when you were getting in your car, though?

Me: Yeees.

Officer: You're going to need to step out and talk with me.

Me: No.

Officer: Yes, sir. You're going to have to.

Me: No.

Officer: Yes, sir. You're going to have to.

Me: No, I don't.

Wife: It's legal.

Officer: What was that?

Wife: Just step out and talk to him. It's legal.

Officer: All I want to do is just talk to you. You're not in any kind of trouble.

Me: Okay, but what I'm telling you is we're in a hurry and we're leaving.

Officer: Well here's the problem. Someone called in a complaint. So what I have to do is I actually have to check on you all. And talk to you all and make sure you're ok to carry a weapon.

Me: Yeah. We're fine.

Officer: You have to get out. (kind of chuckling) Can I explain why you have to?

Me: Sure explain it.

Officer: In the state of Kentucky when a cop gets out to you and they have to ask you your name and stuff and you deny them... I can actually arrest you for that, but I'm not going to do that.

Me: What's the law?

Officer: That is the law.

Me: No, it's not.

Officer: Yes, it is.

Me: What's your reasonable suspicion to even question me?

Officer: The fact I saw you get into a vehicle with a gun.

Me: And that's illegal?

Officer: If you're not allowed to carry a gun. Yes, sir, it is illegal.

Me: Ok. What's your reasonable suspicion?

Officer: Sir, you got into a car with a gun on your side. I don't have to have anything other than that to check your name.

Me: (scoffing) Yeah, you do.

Officer: (scoffing) No, I don't.

Me: Yeeees. You do.

Officer: No, sir, I don't.

Me: Ok. Are you detaining me?

Officer: Huh?

Me: Are you detaining me?

Officer: I am going to detain you right now if you don't cooperate.

Me: That's not what I asked. Are you detaining me RIGHT now?

Officer: I'm trying to do it the easy way.

Me: We are doing it the easy way. The easy way is I leave and go on about my business, because I was doing nothing illegal.

Officer: That's not going to happen.

Me: That is going to happen.

Officer: Okay.

Wife: Just get out and talk to him.

Officer: Go on and step out on that side for me, sir.

Me: I'm not stepping out.

Wife: Just talk to him. I'm not bailing you out of jail.

Me (to my wife): You're not going to have to bail me out of jail.

Wife: Just talk to him, because he will arrest you. (Almost in tears) And I can't deal with that.

Officer: Alright step out of the car.

Me (to officer): I'm not stepping out.

Officer: You are going to step out or I'm going to pull you out.

Wife (to me): Please get out of the car.

Me: I'm not stepping out.

Wife (to me): Please.

Officer (to other officer): (inaudible) doesn't want to give us any id after I saw him get into a car with a gun.

Wife: Please get out. I can't deal with it. (By this point I know not making it easier for my wife is making me look like an ass, but I'm stubborn.)

Officer 2: What's your name, sir?

Me: What's your name?

Officer 2: Officer Wilbur with the police department.

Me: Nice to meet you. I'm C.R. Pulley.

Officer 2: Nice to meet you. You doing alright tonight?

Me: I am. I was getting ready to leave. Minding my own business and he is trying to tell me I have to stop what I'm doing to talk with this gentleman.

Officer 2: Well let me tell you what's going on.

Me: I know what's going on.

Officer 2: What's going on?

Me: You saw me with a firearm and you don't like it so you're harassing me.

Officer 2: No I'm not harassing you. A citizen out here called that there was a white man with a white tea shirt and blue jeans (Me: Uhuh) and with a female with a pink shirt (Me: Uhuh) walking around with a gun on his side. (Me: Uhuh) I know it's not illegal to do that, but we still have a duty to check into the call (Me: You checked. Ok and so you checked right? Am I doing anything illegal?)

Officer 2: That's what I'm doing out here right now and when you start..... getting bent out of shape about it.

Me: I wasn't getting bent out of shape about it. He asked if he could talk to me, and I said no, because we're leaving.

Officer 2: Ok.

Me: And he wants to make an issue that I have to sit here and talk to him. Which I don't because I'm not doing anything illegal I'm trying to get on my way and be on with my business.

(At this time they decide they're not getting anywhere with me and decide to hassle my wife for her information.)

Officer 2: Do yo.... Does she have an id, because she's driving a car we just want to make sure everything is good with it.

Wife: Yes, I do.

Officer 2: Ok just sit tight. We'll check her id and get you on your way. Do you have an insurance card as well?

Wife: Yes, I do.

(Afterwards I ask the first cop for his name and badge number and we go on our way.)

My response is not on your poll: "If I am doing something illegal, write a citation and cite the law I am violating...then I will give you my ID. If you do not write a Citation, I will give no ID and we will be on our way." then silence.

You showed great resolve. I can't stand it when my woman starts to cry and I think I would have humored the cop for a minute.

But then again, in TN, when the police say "let me see your papers," unfortunately we must do so. This is why I'm still hesitant to start OCing.

SovereignAxe said:

....

But then again, in TN, when the police say "let me see your papers," unfortunately we must do so. This is why I'm still hesitant to start OCing.

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You mean to say that Terry does not apply in TN?

I would have thought that Terry would have dealt with any state law that was more intrusive than what Terry provides for. But I'm willing to learn, if you can explain.

And if Terry and its progeny does in fact control, it means that letting the po-lice [sic] get away with riding roughshod over your rights becomes something that needs to be countered by everyone. It does not mean that the only way to fight against the misbehavior of the cops is by being arrested and being aquitted at trial and then suing them. Or suing them for an injunction because you are afraid they would arrest you if you were to refuse to comply with their illegal demand.

Start a publicity campaign. Start a letter-writing campaign to the Legislature to fix the law. Just don't let them stop you from exercising your rights out of fear of being hassled.

stay safe.

To avoid this in the future:

Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?

You: Am I being detained?

skidmark said:

You mean to say that Terry does not apply in TN?

I would have thought that Terry would have dealt with any state law that was more intrusive than what Terry provides for. But I'm willing to learn, if you can explain.

And if Terry and its progeny does in fact control, it means that letting the po-lice [sic] get away with riding roughshod over your rights becomes something that needs to be countered by everyone. It does not mean that the only way to fight against the misbehavior of the cops is by being arrested and being aquitted at trial and then suing them. Or suing them for an injunction because you are afraid they would arrest you if you were to refuse to comply with their illegal demand.

Start a publicity campaign. Start a letter-writing campaign to the Legislature to fix the law. Just don't let them stop you from exercising your rights out of fear of being hassled.

stay safe.

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In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

39-17-1351 (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."

She did give her documents. I recall reading somewhere in the KRS that if you are operating a motor vehicle you are obligated to show your license upon request. I went searching through them last night, but couldn't find the KRS I was thinking of. I'll likely have another soon.

Overtaker said:

To avoid this in the future:

Officer: Mind stepping out and talking to me for a bit?

You: Am I being detained?



In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

39-17-1351 (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."

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And unless you are being detained, you still don't have to acknowledge the existence of the officer, even in Tennessee.

There have been a couple times that I have been asked for my permit, and have NOT been detained... I just walked away.

i would have gave my license to him to check, then been on my way. the reason is after saying no for several minutes and then after another officer showing up, it would have got you out of there faster than just not doing anything. as your wife was checked anyways, so it would have been quicker to let them check. they just wanted to make sure you could carry a gun and wasn't a felon, they can't just take your word for it, just my 2 cents. thanks

boomer92266 said:

i would have gave my license to him to check, then been on my way. the reason is after saying no for several minutes and then after another officer showing up, it would have got you out of there faster than just not doing anything. as your wife was checked anyways, so it would have been quicker to let them check. they just wanted to make sure you could carry a gun and wasn't a felon, they can't just take your word for it, just my 2 cents. thanks

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It wasn't about time. it was about exercising his rights. He wasn't doing anything wrong, so why are the cops stopping him? Police need to do their job and just that. Enforce LAWS, if no one is breaking the LAW then there is no reason to stop them.

Schlitz said:

It wasn't about time. it was about exercising his rights. He wasn't doing anything wrong, so why are the cops stopping him? Police need to do their job and just that. Enforce LAWS, if no one is breaking the LAW then there is no reason to stop them.

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Exactly. Why is it that on a forum that champions our rights so few actually get it?

Sweet photochop too!.

I don't think like they're targeting me specifically. However, because they couldn't enforce their law they're going to make it a hassle to exercise the right. I hate being lied to and even more so by a cop trying to get me to abdicate my rights. When his lies weren't working he then threatened to use force. These are things we shouldn't be tolerating. Everyone should be able to enjoy rights, but sadly only the ones that are educated and not easily intimidated enjoy them. That my friends is just a damned shame.

HandyHamlet said:

Sweet photochop too!.

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ahthankyou

CharleyCherokee said:

These are things we shouldn't be tolerating. Everyone should be able to enjoy rights, but sadly only the ones that are educated and not easily intimidated enjoy them. That my friends is just a damned shame.

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Exactly. I have had to stand my ground twice, once quoting the ruling from Terri vs Ohio when an officer tried to search me for OC, after I told him to "get your damn hand out of my pocket". Needless to say he was surprised, both at my statement and my knowledge, but he relented and did not threaten force. Not that it would have mattered.

Keep up the libertarians charge my friend.

Overtaker said:

In Tennessee, it is illegal to carry a firearm PERIOD. Having a permit is a "defense" to this crime. And there's this:

39-17-1351 (1). Handgun carry permits. "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer."

Click to expand...

This. IMO this law is unconstitutional but, as a broke college student, I have neither the time nor the money to fight it.

I certainly agree with gutshot boomer! I would have reacted the same way, no officer has a right to check your identification for exercising a legal right, at least not in our state. I find it absurd that this pd acts the way they do, it's incredibly shameful. I thank you Charley for not giving into the tyrant behavior, and standing your ground, even when being threatened with detainment. If only all were willing to stand their ground, episodes like this would be few and far between. We all know leo's don't like being wrong in public. What are you doing from here?, are you going to file a complaint?

I am considering filing a complaint. I have all the information I need to do so.

I'd also press the issue about them taking your wife's information as well. While we have to show proper documentation while driving this is only true if a traffic infraction has been witnessed by the leo. What was the infraction? Sitting behind the wheel? This was clearly an illegal detainment. Do a foia request immediately and sue the pants off of the "officers.

What He said right before me!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Thos.Jefferson said:

I'd also press the issue about them taking your wife's information as well. While we have to show proper documentation while driving this is only true if a traffic infraction has been witnessed by the leo. What was the infraction? Sitting behind the wheel? This was clearly an illegal detainment. Do a foia request immediately and sue the pants off of the "officers.

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Can u please Cite krs on this topic? I have searched everywhere, but all I can find is it being mandatory to surrender your license anytime you are driving a vehicle....

KYGlockster said:

Can u please Cite krs on this topic? I have searched everywhere, but all I can find is it being mandatory to surrender your license anytime you are driving a vehicle....

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KRS 186.510 License to be in possession and to be shown on demand.

The licensee shall have his or her license in his or her immediate possession at all times when driving a motor vehicle and shall display it upon demand to the circuit clerk or examiner, a peace officer, a member of the Department of Kentucky State Police, or a field deputy or inspector of the Department of Vehicle Regulation or Transportation Cabinet or, pursuant to KRS 67A.075 or 83A.088, a safety officer who is in the process of securing information to complete an accident report. It shall be a defense to any charge under this section if the person so charged produces in court an operator's license, issued to him or her before his or her arrest and valid at the time of his or her arrest.

Effective: June 26, 2007

History: Amended 2007 Ky. Acts ch. 85, sec. 197, effective June 26, 2007. -- Amended 1994 Ky. Acts ch. 110, sec. 3, effective July 15, 1994. -- Amended 1976 (1st Extra. Sess.) Ky. Acts ch. 14, sec. 174, effective January 2, 1978. -- Amended 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 74, Art. IV, sec. 20(2), (9). -- Amended 1966 Ky. Acts ch. 255, sec. 171. -- Amended 1946 Ky. Acts ch. 127, sec. 6. -- Recodified 1942 Ky. Acts ch. 208, sec. 1, effective October 1, 1942, from Ky. Stat. sec. 2739m-46.