Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 69

Thread: Hypothetical: Husband and wife have CPLs and this happens?

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Hypothetical: Husband and wife have CPLs and this happens?

    Hypothetical (Michigan law applies)

    Parameters: Husband and wife BOTH have CPLs.
    All handguns are registered to Husband.
    Two handguns are loaded and are in the center consol of car.
    Assume husband has a BAL of over 0.02

    Scene: Husband and wife go out to dinner. Husband has 3 alcoholic drinks (Within an hours time) with dinner. Wife does not drink alcohol. After dinner they enter the car and drive home. The wife is driving. Both guns are still loaded and in the console.

    The couple gets pulled over and the LEO approaches driver side and the wife states she has a CPL and has guns in the console.

    The husband does not say a word throughout the stop.

    Question: Is the husband lawful in his silence?

    Discuss.

    You can also add that the handguns were run (For whatever reason) and the owner was the husband.
    Last edited by Venator; 09-19-2011 at 12:56 PM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228
    yes, legal. MCL 28.432

    if she was smart, she would take both guns out of her console and put both guns in her purse. that would convey, more obviously, that she was in possession of said firearms.

    that is my take on it.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Hmmm, good question.

    Should be ok, the guns have a "designated driver".


  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228
    and conversely, if the firearms were in the wife's name... in the wife's car... and the husband was sober... he should take both firearms and put them in his pocket. he should do this for the same reasons. to convey clearly that he is in possession of the firearms.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    228
    MCL 28.432

    An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    oops
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-19-2011 at 12:24 PM.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Guns in the car could have been open, but are still considered concealed. In my cars, they are visible.

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Before anyone states that it does not matter, the reason for the stop (getting pulled over) does matter. I understand the point of the question.

    The "Discuss" part should have been omitted, because this indicates that a search that found the guns was likely lawful-ish, or the information was required/volunteered. Though, I am at a loss as how a gun not in the hand is a danger to any LEO. Then again, if you have a few too many beers and are a passenger, with a CPL, heading home, where one or more guns are, could be a point of contention unless state statute speciffically addresses being "in your cups" at home with a gun as an exemption to any silly "intoxicated with a gun" laws.
    Well the point is however they found out about the owner of the guns, is the husband in the clear by not disclosing? Keep in mind the husband has said nothing, has not provided ID or stated who he is.

    If the LEO did run the guns they would have come back to someone other than the wife, but they don't know that person is also in the car. For that matter the guns could have been registered to the wife's sister, that really isn't the main point. The main point is, is the husband in possession of the handguns and did he violate the law if he doesn't disclose he has a CPL and is carrying a handgun, thereby incriminating himself.

    The argument of course is, is the wife transporting the guns under her CPL and he husband is not?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,440
    Based on my reading of the law, I would say it is lawful. I will add that I sure as hell hope so because this situation Happens now and again with my wife and I. We haven't been pulled over, but I do remind her to say she is in possession of all the firearms in the car if we did.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    If the wife left the vehicle, then the husband would be in possession, therefore in violation.

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    This is a question pertaining to Michigan's laws.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    It is an interesting question. In my non-lawyerly opinion, it could go either way. Here are a few factors that popped into my brain.

    Who is the prosecutor? Pro or Anti?

    Who is the judge? This is perhaps the single biggest factor deciding his guilt/innocence, especially if it is a first offense.

    Assuming this is his first offense, the charge is a civil infraction. This equates to a much lower burden of proof. 50% more guilty than not. Verses if this is a subsequent offense he is charged with, then he would have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    It is reasonable to me that if the wife has a cpl, and the guns are in the center console, and she claims that she is in possession of them, then he is not guilty. A judge might think differently. What would happen legally in a similar scenario, involving illicit drugs found in the center console? If the driver were to claim possession of the drugs, would the passengers be found guilty of possession?

    By not speaking, but being found by the court to be in possession of the pistol(s), he would then risk being charged with not disclosing. If he had lots of money to spend on a lawyer, I would think that fighting the disclosure law on the basis of a 5th amendment violation would be a logical step.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    It is an interesting question. In my non-lawyerly opinion, it could go either way. Here are a few factors that popped into my brain.

    Who is the prosecutor? Pro or Anti?

    Who is the judge? This is perhaps the single biggest factor deciding his guilt/innocence, especially if it is a first offense.

    Assuming this is his first offense, the charge is a civil infraction. This equates to a much lower burden of proof. 50% more guilty than not. Verses if this is a subsequent offense he is charged with, then he would have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

    It is reasonable to me that if the wife has a cpl, and the guns are in the center console, and she claims that she is in possession of them, then he is not guilty. A judge might think differently. What would happen legally in a similar scenario, involving illicit drugs found in the center console? If the driver were to claim possession of the drugs, would the passengers be found guilty of possession?

    By not speaking, but being found by the court to be in possession of the pistol(s), he would then risk being charged with not disclosing. If he had lots of money to spend on a lawyer, I would think that fighting the disclosure law on the basis of a 5th amendment violation would be a logical step.
    Can't bring drugs into it as they are illegal (sans maybe pot medical and all). The guns are lawfully possessed by the wife.

    Lets expand. What if the husband doesn't have a CPL, is he in possession of the guns? If so then how about any person in the car without a CPL? If not then the CPL holding husband shouldn't be in possession using the same logic.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I was thinking about the drug angle as well. If a passenger has it, then its the drivers responsibility to know whats in his car. (*cough bull$#!+ cough).

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Lets expand. What if the husband doesn't have a CPL, is he in possession of the guns? If so then how about any person in the car without a CPL? If not then the CPL holding husband shouldn't be in possession using the same logic.
    Glad you brought that up. My response from MGO, self quote.

    What about our children then? In my cars, the gun is in a holster mounted on the console. In the Camaro, the gun is technically on the passenger side, does that mean that my daughter, being 8 years old is in possession? Ir my friend, is he in possession?

  16. #16
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    831
    Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    down river
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?
    yes you do.. because when a cop pull's a car over any and everyone in that car is being detained.

    if you dont believe me, next time ur in the car with your wife and she gets pulled over try to get out and walk around.

    they cop will tell you to stay in your car meaning your being detained.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    yes you do.. because when a cop pull's a car over any and everyone in that car is being detained.

    if you dont believe me, next time ur in the car with your wife and she gets pulled over try to get out and walk around.

    they cop will tell you to stay in your car meaning your being detained.
    If carrying concealed you would. But if not you have no obligation to say or ID youself as a passenger.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?
    Interesting. If I was carrying concealed yes.... But in the OP scenario then you are not carrying concealed.
    Last edited by Venator; 09-19-2011 at 06:29 PM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Since you're in the car, you would be concealing though.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Since you're in the car, you would be concealing though.
    Am I? Or is my wife.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Corunna, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,772
    Gotta put my .02 in on this.

    Yes he's legal in not notifying. He is not in possession, no duty to notify.
    Wife can claim possession since they are in the center console; operator is considered "in possession" of anything in the vehicle. CPL holders can posses anyone's legal handgun.

    Did I win anything?

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Newport, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    108
    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?
    Yes.
    A traffic stop is, for practical purposes, a Terry stop;[10] for the duration of a stop, driver and passengers are “seized
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

    To quote OP, Wife is in possession and reports, I have CPL, I am in possession of two weapons. Husband is not in Possession and has no duty.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If the finding out of the guns in the vehicle was accomplished illegally then that is the point. If not disclosing, how would anyone, without volunteering by the wife, know he is the husband? Why would any LEO(s) even question the passenger if they have no RAS to question. There are many many court cases that uphold that LE is not permitted to question passengers absent RAS.
    Please provide a citation of one of the "many court cases" to which you refer. Also, in Michigan, one needs a permit to possess a firearm in a vehicle. The answer as to the legality is "it depends"... If the officer could somehow show possession, which I really don't see how he/she could, then it would be illegal. Although I really don't see how it could be deemed illegal, I used to think that a scenario such as banning firearms in a library located in a state with preemption would also not be seen as "do-able", wonders never cease.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    down river
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by Gort View Post
    Yes.
    A traffic stop is, for practical purposes, a Terry stop;[10] for the duration of a stop, driver and passengers are “seized
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

    To quote OP, Wife is in possession and reports, I have CPL, I am in possession of two weapons. Husband is not in Possession and has no duty.
    yes which mean's u are being detained..

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •