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Hypothetical: Husband and wife have CPLs and this happens?

Venator

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Hypothetical (Michigan law applies)

Parameters: Husband and wife BOTH have CPLs.
All handguns are registered to Husband.
Two handguns are loaded and are in the center consol of car.
Assume husband has a BAL of over 0.02

Scene: Husband and wife go out to dinner. Husband has 3 alcoholic drinks (Within an hours time) with dinner. Wife does not drink alcohol. After dinner they enter the car and drive home. The wife is driving. Both guns are still loaded and in the console.

The couple gets pulled over and the LEO approaches driver side and the wife states she has a CPL and has guns in the console.

The husband does not say a word throughout the stop.

Question: Is the husband lawful in his silence?

Discuss.

You can also add that the handguns were run (For whatever reason) and the owner was the husband.
 
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ElectricianLU58

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yes, legal. MCL 28.432

if she was smart, she would take both guns out of her console and put both guns in her purse. that would convey, more obviously, that she was in possession of said firearms.

that is my take on it.
 

stainless1911

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Hmmm, good question.

Should be ok, the guns have a "designated driver".

popkorn.gif
 

ElectricianLU58

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and conversely, if the firearms were in the wife's name... in the wife's car... and the husband was sober... he should take both firearms and put them in his pocket. he should do this for the same reasons. to convey clearly that he is in possession of the firearms.
 

ElectricianLU58

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MCL 28.432

An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan.
 

Venator

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Before anyone states that it does not matter, the reason for the stop (getting pulled over) does matter. I understand the point of the question.

The "Discuss" part should have been omitted, because this indicates that a search that found the guns was likely lawful-ish, or the information was required/volunteered. Though, I am at a loss as how a gun not in the hand is a danger to any LEO. Then again, if you have a few too many beers and are a passenger, with a CPL, heading home, where one or more guns are, could be a point of contention unless state statute speciffically addresses being "in your cups" at home with a gun as an exemption to any silly "intoxicated with a gun" laws.

Well the point is however they found out about the owner of the guns, is the husband in the clear by not disclosing? Keep in mind the husband has said nothing, has not provided ID or stated who he is.

If the LEO did run the guns they would have come back to someone other than the wife, but they don't know that person is also in the car. For that matter the guns could have been registered to the wife's sister, that really isn't the main point. The main point is, is the husband in possession of the handguns and did he violate the law if he doesn't disclose he has a CPL and is carrying a handgun, thereby incriminating himself.

The argument of course is, is the wife transporting the guns under her CPL and he husband is not?
 

scot623

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Based on my reading of the law, I would say it is lawful. I will add that I sure as hell hope so because this situation Happens now and again with my wife and I. We haven't been pulled over, but I do remind her to say she is in possession of all the firearms in the car if we did.
 

lapeer20m

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It is an interesting question. In my non-lawyerly opinion, it could go either way. Here are a few factors that popped into my brain.

Who is the prosecutor? Pro or Anti?

Who is the judge? This is perhaps the single biggest factor deciding his guilt/innocence, especially if it is a first offense.

Assuming this is his first offense, the charge is a civil infraction. This equates to a much lower burden of proof. 50% more guilty than not. Verses if this is a subsequent offense he is charged with, then he would have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is reasonable to me that if the wife has a cpl, and the guns are in the center console, and she claims that she is in possession of them, then he is not guilty. A judge might think differently. What would happen legally in a similar scenario, involving illicit drugs found in the center console? If the driver were to claim possession of the drugs, would the passengers be found guilty of possession?

By not speaking, but being found by the court to be in possession of the pistol(s), he would then risk being charged with not disclosing. If he had lots of money to spend on a lawyer, I would think that fighting the disclosure law on the basis of a 5th amendment violation would be a logical step.
 

Venator

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It is an interesting question. In my non-lawyerly opinion, it could go either way. Here are a few factors that popped into my brain.

Who is the prosecutor? Pro or Anti?

Who is the judge? This is perhaps the single biggest factor deciding his guilt/innocence, especially if it is a first offense.

Assuming this is his first offense, the charge is a civil infraction. This equates to a much lower burden of proof. 50% more guilty than not. Verses if this is a subsequent offense he is charged with, then he would have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is reasonable to me that if the wife has a cpl, and the guns are in the center console, and she claims that she is in possession of them, then he is not guilty. A judge might think differently. What would happen legally in a similar scenario, involving illicit drugs found in the center console? If the driver were to claim possession of the drugs, would the passengers be found guilty of possession?

By not speaking, but being found by the court to be in possession of the pistol(s), he would then risk being charged with not disclosing. If he had lots of money to spend on a lawyer, I would think that fighting the disclosure law on the basis of a 5th amendment violation would be a logical step.

Can't bring drugs into it as they are illegal (sans maybe pot medical and all). The guns are lawfully possessed by the wife.

Lets expand. What if the husband doesn't have a CPL, is he in possession of the guns? If so then how about any person in the car without a CPL? If not then the CPL holding husband shouldn't be in possession using the same logic.
 

stainless1911

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Lets expand. What if the husband doesn't have a CPL, is he in possession of the guns? If so then how about any person in the car without a CPL? If not then the CPL holding husband shouldn't be in possession using the same logic.

Glad you brought that up. My response from MGO, self quote.

What about our children then? In my cars, the gun is in a holster mounted on the console. In the Camaro, the gun is technically on the passenger side, does that mean that my daughter, being 8 years old is in possession? Ir my friend, is he in possession?
 

HKcarrier

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Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?
 

rvd4now

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Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?

yes you do.. because when a cop pull's a car over any and everyone in that car is being detained.

if you dont believe me, next time ur in the car with your wife and she gets pulled over try to get out and walk around.

they cop will tell you to stay in your car meaning your being detained.
 

Venator

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yes you do.. because when a cop pull's a car over any and everyone in that car is being detained.

if you dont believe me, next time ur in the car with your wife and she gets pulled over try to get out and walk around.

they cop will tell you to stay in your car meaning your being detained.

If carrying concealed you would. But if not you have no obligation to say or ID youself as a passenger.
 

Venator

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Interesting scenerio.... I also wonder if you take alcohol out of the equasion... if your wife is pulled over and you're riding shotgun and you are carrying... do you need to disclose?

Interesting. If I was carrying concealed yes.... But in the OP scenario then you are not carrying concealed.:)
 
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