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Thread: First open carry encounter

  1. #1
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    First open carry encounter

    While attempting to shop at Wal Mart on SE14th St In Des Moines with my son, I was approached by the people greeter....

    I expect you all to do what you do best: analyze, critique, and offer your opinions as to how I handled this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtax70FA0M

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Well, I think you handled it pretty well. How are you planning to proceed? Having worked in management at Walmart for fives years I can tell you their policy is very clear. They follow state law. Management is not supposed to interfere with anyone lawfully carrying a gun. Not sure why some Walmarts don't get this. You should talk to the store manager if you have not done so already. If you have already tried that, then you should talk to the district manager. Give the store manager a chance because they like to solve problems before it gets to the district level. I haven't heard of anyone who had problem getting the carry issue resolved at a Walmart.

    On another note, where did the police officer come from? Where did the manager go? Did the manager ask you to leave or the officer? Don't know much about Iowa law, was the officer accurate in his statements about taking your permit and gun?

    Let us know how they respond. Good luck!
    Last edited by thebigsd; 09-19-2011 at 07:45 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Who was the gentleman asking for your permit? I didn't hear him identifying as LEO.

    Sent from my HTC EVO
    Last edited by Dogbait; 09-19-2011 at 07:41 PM.

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    The police officer was on duty in the security room. I have seen officers at that store before at all times of the day coming in and out of the room, or hiding behind a dress rack on the floor by the checkouts watching people shop. I would assume the city has an officer present at all times...not sure why, but I will find out. Already started drafting my letter to corporate!

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbait View Post
    Who was the gentleman asking for your permit? I didn't hear him identifying as LEO.

    Sent from my HTC EVO
    He said "I'm a police officer." I didn't catch it the first time either.

    Geoff,

    I edited my post and asked a couple more questions. Thanks.

    Kind of suprised about the officer being on duty for Walmart. We hired officers for special events (Black Friday) but certainly did not have them on standby in the store.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 09-19-2011 at 07:49 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    On another note, where did the police officer come from? Where did the manager go? Did the manager ask you to leave or the officer? Don't know much about Iowa law, was the officer accurate in his statements about taking your permit and gun?

    Let us know how they respond. Good luck!
    The greeter told me the store manager had just left the building, and so she went to the security room where the police officer and store supervisor who replied "yes" when asked if weapons are allowed were sitting.

    As I read SF2379 I see no mention of an officers right to sieze personal property at any time if s/he feels compelled to do so. The section does suggest that open carry is discouraged because of the public.

    Link to Iowa DPS site:
    http://www.dps.state.ia.us/asd/SF2379_FAQ.pdf

  7. #7
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Officer Friendly sounded a bit miffed that a mere civilian might know the law better than he and question his "authoritah."

    What was the after action report?
    Did you cover? Did you continue shopping? Did you leave?

    The only thing I can see where you might have been behind the power curve was you should have Insisted Officer Friendly's Supervisor come out.

    Oh, and unless you're buying alcohol, cashing a check, or checking out a book at the library, why are you carrying ID? I leave my Driving License in my car..... for when I'm driving. (For the last 2 years or so, my "wallet" has been an ATM card and my weapon license. Everything else I take with me only when I know reasonably suspect that I'm going to need it. You wouldn't believe how much less bulky my wallet's become.)


    If Officer Friendly wants to follow me out to my car to see my Driving License, he's welcome to. He'd better pack a lunch first, 'cause I tend to forget where I parked and what car I was driving. We could walk up and down every, single, last lane in the entire parking lot before we "find" my car. And then, he's gonna be disappointed when I point out that since I'm not driving he's not going to see my driving license.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 09-19-2011 at 09:35 PM.

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    Regular Member 1Grizzly1's Avatar
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    QUESTION: Under the new law, do I have to carry my handgun concealed?
    ANSWER: Iowa law has not changed in this regard. You may carry concealed or you may carry openly; however, most permit holders
    carry concealed to avoid making it obvious that the person is armed, thus avoiding unnecessary attention, concern, or alarm.

    QUESTION: Can the owner of private property (to include businesses/employers) regulate the carrying of weapons on their private
    property?
    ANSWER: The topic of firearms restrictions on private property and in the workplace is not addressed in Iowa firearms law.

    That is right from the Iowa DPS website. I found the second Q&A very interesting. I wonder where private property laws about firearms can be found.

    I thought you handled yourself very well. Follow through.
    Last edited by 1Grizzly1; 09-19-2011 at 09:40 PM.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    does Iowa law require you to provide a concealed carry permit when you are NOT in possession of a concealed firearm?
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Officer Friendly sounded a bit miffed that a mere civilian might know the law better than he and question his "authoritah."

    What was the after action report?
    Did you cover? Did you continue shopping? Did you leave?

    The only thing I can see where you might have been behind the power curve was you should have Insisted Officer Friendly's Supervisor come out.
    I refused to cover. I turned right around and left. Send an email to corporate and am awaiting response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    does Iowa law require you to provide a concealed carry permit when you are NOT in possession of a concealed firearm?
    Tricky thing...in order to legally carry openly within city limits in Iowa, one must posess a Permit To Carry Weapons. Now, If I am out and about in city limits with my sidearm in the open, and there is no RAS that something is "off", I see no reason for a requirement to produce my permit. One should assume that since I am openly carrying a firearm with my son just going about my day, that I should be left alone.

    I intended to refuse to show my permit due to lack of reasonable suspicion, and to have his Sargeant come out, but to be honest being my first time I just wanted to diffuse the situation. Trust that I would do it differently if it happened again.

  12. #12
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    724.5 Duty to carry permit to carry weapons.
    A person armed with a revolver, pistol, or pocket billy concealed upon the person shall have in
    the person's immediate possession the permit provided for in section 724.4, subsection 4,
    paragraph "i", and shall produce the permit for inspection at the request of a peace officer.
    Failure to so produce a permit is a simple misdemeanor.
    I think that should be read very carefully. It makes the situation very interesting.

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    My only critique that comes to mind is when you questioned if you were legally obligated to show the permit. Based on my understanding of 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph "i", you do need to produce the permit upon request.

    i. A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a
    valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within
    the limits of that permit.
    Aside from that, I think that really had a pretty favorable outcome, by the sounds of it. The request to cover it up seemed pretty out of sync with the law, though.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    When I listened to the recording, it was pretty clear that the officer was requesting that the firearm be covered on his personal behalf, not the states..... although he sure wanted the OP to infer that it was on behalf of the state.

    Remember, Officer Friendly has the right to ask for your identification... he has the right to ask your name, your age, what your favorite color is, and if you want to go back to his place and rub chocolate sauce on each others naked bodies. Whether he has the authority to demand a happy ending to any of the above is quite another matter. "Rights" and "Authorities" are often conflated in order to give the semblance of power contained in the second to the first.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 09-19-2011 at 11:36 PM.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Angry

    You have addressed the wally world situation but more importantly you need to address this officer friendly situation. You should IMMEDIATLY file a complaint with his department and your local court system for harrassment. What he did is NOT taught in the acadamy.....any acadamy. If he and his fellow thugs are left to harrass more innocent people then you will have been part of the problem. The fact you have it on tape, him actually making threats not supported by law is no better than our friendly officer threatening to kill a guy. This needs to be addressed, or the next person might not stay as calm as you when being threatened by a ROUGE LEO. Make sure you give the police chief and mayor a copy of the tape and ask them for a meeting, let then know the press being involved can be optional. It would depent on the officer giving you a public appology in on the wallmart PA, new training for the local officers about legal OC. A lawsuit and bad press can be avoided.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    It would depent on the officer giving you a public appology in on the wallmart PA,
    this...is awesome.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  17. #17
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    "I am sorry officer Friendly, you are asking me to do something illegal. I cannot conceal unless I have my permit on my person, but I am sorry, it is my car with my drivers license."

    One reason to not carry ID with you when you OC. A permit is not required for OC, so don't carry your permit with you when you OC, then they cannot legally tell you to cover up. (doesn't work in TX, Fl....)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    You have addressed the wally world situation but more importantly you need to address this officer friendly situation. You should IMMEDIATLY file a complaint with his department and your local court system for harrassment. What he did is NOT taught in the acadamy.....any acadamy. If he and his fellow thugs are left to harrass more innocent people then you will have been part of the problem. The fact you have it on tape, him actually making threats not supported by law is no better than our friendly officer threatening to kill a guy. This needs to be addressed, or the next person might not stay as calm as you when being threatened by a ROUGE LEO. Make sure you give the police chief and mayor a copy of the tape and ask them for a meeting, let then know the press being involved can be optional. It would depent on the officer giving you a public appology in on the wallmart PA, new training for the local officers about legal OC. A lawsuit and bad press can be avoided.
    SUCH PASSION! Truly contagious. This afternoon I plan on heading down to the police department with my evidence to file a complaint. I realize that the fault in this situation lies with both the store and the police department 50/50.

    As for carrying ID and my permit when OCing....that is now a thing of the past. I am a bit concerned about the specific language of the law, particularly the part about having to produce a permit if CONCEALING a weapon. OC has nothing to do with that requirement, but I'm concerned an officer won't see it that way. All the more reason to follow through with the PD right?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I cannot conceal unless I have my permit on my person,

    A permit is not required for OC, so don't carry your permit with you when you OC
    Incorrect

    A permit is required to open or conceal carry in Iowa.

    724.4 CARRYING WEAPONS.
    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who
    goes armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the person,
    or who, within the limits of any city, goes armed with a pistol or
    revolver, or any loaded firearm of any kind, whether concealed or
    not
    , or who knowingly carries or transports in a vehicle a pistol or
    revolver, commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
    2. A person who goes armed with a knife concealed on or about the
    person, if the person uses the knife in the commission of a crime,
    commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
    3. A person who goes armed with a knife concealed on or about the
    person, if the person does not use the knife in the commission of a
    crime:
    a. If the knife has a blade exceeding eight inches in length,
    commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
    b. If the knife has a blade exceeding five inches but not
    exceeding eight inches in length, commits a serious misdemeanor.
    4. Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the following:
    a. A person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon in the
    person's own dwelling or place of business, or on land owned or
    possessed by the person.
    b. A peace officer, when the officer's duties require the
    person to carry such weapons.
    c. A member of the armed forces of the United States or of
    the national guard or person in the service of the United States,
    when the weapons are carried in connection with the person's duties
    as such.
    d. A correctional officer, when the officer's duties require,
    serving under the authority of the Iowa department of corrections.
    e. A person who for any lawful purpose carries an unloaded
    pistol, revolver, or other dangerous weapon inside a closed and
    fastened container or securely wrapped package which is too large to
    be concealed on the person.
    f. A person who for any lawful purpose carries or transports
    an unloaded pistol or revolver in a vehicle inside a closed and
    fastened container or securely wrapped package which is too large to
    be concealed on the person or inside a cargo or luggage compartment
    where the pistol or revolver will not be readily accessible to any
    person riding in the vehicle or common carrier.
    g. A person while the person is lawfully engaged in target
    practice on a range designed for that purpose or while actually
    engaged in lawful hunting.
    h. A person who carries a knife used in hunting or fishing,
    while actually engaged in lawful hunting or fishing.
    i. A person who has in the person's possession and who
    displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons
    which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the
    limits of that permit.
    A person shall not be convicted of a
    violation of this section if the person produces at the person's
    trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the
    alleged offense and which would have brought the person's conduct
    within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of
    the alleged offense.
    j. A law enforcement officer from another state when the
    officer's duties require the officer to carry the weapon and the
    officer is in this state for any of the following reasons:
    (1) The extradition or other lawful removal of a prisoner from
    this state.
    (2) Pursuit of a suspect in compliance with chapter 806.
    (3) Activities in the capacity of a law enforcement officer with
    the knowledge and consent of the chief of police of the city or the
    sheriff of the county in which the activities occur or of the
    commissioner of public safety.
    k. A person engaged in the business of transporting prisoners
    under a contract with the Iowa department of corrections or a county
    sheriff, a similar agency from another state, or the federal
    government. ,
    You also MUST show, on demand of an officer, your permit to carry a firearm.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 09-20-2011 at 09:53 AM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
    particularly the part about having to produce a permit if CONCEALING a weapon
    Please read the above post for the information.

    IANAL, but it is believed that we are required, concealed or open, to have our permit on our person when we are in possession of a firearm.

    However, we are not legally required to disclose that we are carrying. So if its concealed, the officer has no legal right to know if you are carrying or not. That is of course, unless your committing a crime.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 09-20-2011 at 09:50 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
    While attempting to shop at Wal Mart on SE14th St In Des Moines with my son, I was approached by the people greeter....

    I expect you all to do what you do best: analyze, critique, and offer your opinions as to how I handled this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtax70FA0M
    Fine job on the encounter. The officer was only right about one thing and that was the fact that you need to show your permit. He was wrong about everything else. The officer does not have the right to refuse you entry into the store. That is up to the store manager. And from the audio it sounded to me like he was ok with it.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Incorrect

    A permit is required to open or conceal carry in Iowa.

    You also MUST show, on demand of an officer, your permit to carry a firearm.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law..._state%29#Iowa

    According to your quote, which you have incorrectly highlighted, you do not have to show your permit unless you are carrying AND driving a vehicle AND the officer asks to see it. It is not on the 'must disclose' list, that I could find which includes Michigan, NC, and a couple others.

    You highlighted the part about the 'whether or not' but omitted the end which was 'commits aggravated assault', and then 'exemptions' which was having a permit.

    These laws are tricky to read and excerpt, so unless -I- misread it you do not have to disclose on foot. Perhaps if you're printing and an Iowa LEO sees it he can ask. If you're not carrying at ALL, and asked if you have a permit, or asked to show it, you do not have to show in Iowa. (In virginia there's a $100 fine if you leave your permit at home or something and you're asked driving for it (but do not have to volunteer).)
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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  23. #23
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law..._state%29#Iowa

    According to your quote, which you have incorrectly highlighted, you do not have to show your permit unless you are carrying AND driving a vehicle AND the officer asks to see it. It is not on the 'must disclose' list, that I could find which includes Michigan, NC, and a couple others.

    You highlighted the part about the 'whether or not' but omitted the end which was 'commits aggravated assault', and then 'exemptions' which was having a permit.

    These laws are tricky to read and excerpt, so unless -I- misread it you do not have to disclose on foot. Perhaps if you're printing and an Iowa LEO sees it he can ask. If you're not carrying at ALL, and asked if you have a permit, or asked to show it, you do not have to show in Iowa. (In virginia there's a $100 fine if you leave your permit at home or something and you're asked driving for it (but do not have to volunteer).)

    I think the point I was trying to get across is that if an officer knows your carrying, either by discloser or open carry, you are required to show your permit when asked.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
    While attempting to shop at Wal Mart on SE14th St In Des Moines with my son, I was approached by the people greeter....

    I expect you all to do what you do best: analyze, critique, and offer your opinions as to how I handled this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBtax70FA0M
    He has been a cop for 24 years. And a moron for far longer. Another room temperature IQ cop who knows nothing about the law, probably is semi-literate anyway, but wants to throw his weight around when dealing with a 'subject.' Well, you are not a subject. Follow up with a complaint to the department and Wal-Mart corporate. As to his taking your gun and permit away on his own whim, I don't think they suspended the 4th Amendment in IA.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    724.4 CARRYING WEAPONS.
    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person who goes armed with a dangerous weapon concealed on or about the person, or who, within the limits of any city, goes armed with a pistol or revolver, or any loaded firearm of any kind, whether concealed or not, or who knowingly carries or transports in a vehicle a pistol or revolver, commits an aggravated misdemeanor.
    ...
    4. Subsections 1 through 3 do not apply to any of the following:
    .....
    724.4. 4. i. A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit.....

    724.5 DUTY TO CARRY PERMIT TO CARRY WEAPONS.
    A person armed with a revolver, pistol, or pocket billy concealed upon the person shall have in the person's immediate possession the permit provided for in section 724.4, subsection 4, paragraph "i", and shall produce the permit for inspection at the request of a peace officer. Failure to so produce a permit is a simple misdemeanor.

    From the reading of the Iowa Code, it would appear that one must carry and present 100% of the time if concealed, AND must carry and present whenever within the city limits of any city whether concealed or openly carrying. Unless I was very sure of where each and every city limit was, I'd probably carry a permit at all times.

    That's a bit stricter than even my home state of Georgia, where one must carry a weapons license for both open or concealed carry,
    unless it's a longarm. (Oddly enough, rifles with barrels <18 inches aren't even listed as longarms, so a 16" carbine in completely unregulated except for in specified areas, (silly legislators).
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 09-20-2011 at 04:50 PM.

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