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Thread: Passive Concealment

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Passive Concealment

    I practice something I call "Passive Concealment". What I mean by Passive Concealment is that I OC a black SIG P229 Elite Dark in a black Galco Summer Comfort 2 IWB holster and I wear black pants with it and usually a black shirt of some sort. With everything being black by virtue, the gun and holster generally fade into the black of the clothing and therefore while the weapon is OC legally, it is passively CC. Is this legal? Yes! The weapon is OC for all intents and purposes but being that everything is black and dark, it blends into the black.

    Would I advise others to do this if they don't have CCDW, not really. Though there are no set laws and legally, it's in the clear, some LEO's like to try to make an example out of others and this could cause issues in those cases.

    OK, I've thrown the topic out there, what do my fellow OCDO denizens have to say?
    Last edited by neuroblades; 12-28-2011 at 09:19 PM.
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    I have a two tone XDm (silver slide) and find that most times it v very noticable. But along the same lines as you, I have a light green plaid button down short sleeve shirt, and the firearm just seems to dissapear, I rarely notice any looks from people while wearing that shirt, and a full size XDm isn't easy to hide to begin with.

    I find no problem with it, what if you have a camo painted firearm and wear a camo outfit? Same thing to me, legal. Not my fault your eyes can't distinguish what's in plain sight. At least that's my opinion, there could be some weird caselaw that noones seen in 30 years that proves me wrong. >.<


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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it defeat two of the main points of OC (deterrence and awareness) if people didn't notice you were carrying?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Wouldn't it defeat two of the main points of OC (deterrence and awareness) if people didn't notice you were carrying?
    Well, you could paint it Hello Kitty pink

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Wouldn't it defeat two of the main points of OC (deterrence and awareness) if people didn't notice you were carrying?
    Well, if I were carrying it mainly for deterrence & awareness, I guess it would defeat those two purposes but when I OC (about 50% of the time), it's more for educational purposes. I work to help promote the image of the safe and informed gun owner around my parts. If I'm not feeling well and going to have to be out and about with little to no free time in my day, I'll just CC my sidearm.

    Besides, if you stop to think about it, those "bad guys" that might be out there lurking wherever it is that I may roam, they'll definitely be looking for someone else that's carrying. *LOL* So, they'll see it on an off-glance. Those that are law-abiding citizens (gun owner's) might notice it as well and those that are "sheeple", it'll usually pass right by them without a glance.

    This is not to say that I always carry in a passive concealment mode, I usually do that about 25% of the time but it's nice to have another OC option.
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    Regular Member mellio's Avatar
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    I do about the same thing on occasion. Jeans with a black shirt tucked in with my Glock IWB at about the four o'clock position. Seems as nobody even notices.
    As for the legality without a CDW I'm not sure. I probably wouldn't chance it. Even if it is proven to not be concealed it could cost you some big bucks.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Defense to officer at CC trial: Officer, how did you find out the defendent was carrying a firearm?

    Officer: Well, I looked at he hip, and there it was.

    Defense: so, you mean he had it in the open, in sight, on his hip, with nothing covering it except the holster?

    Officer: Well, it was a black holster, and he had on black pants, and a black shirt, so it wasn't very visible, except to my accute observation.

    Defense: So you demanded to see his Concealed permit, and when the defendent said he did not have one you arrested him?

    Officer: that is correct,

    Defense: Officer, do you realize that in the State of KY (and many other states) you can OC a sidearm without a permit?

    Judge: this has gone far enough, case dismissed.

    BTW: I also have a nice black holster, black pistol, black Carharts, and black polo shirts. Have another one in all tan too.
    Last edited by hermannr; 09-21-2011 at 07:43 PM.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Refreshing to hear.

    It's very refreshing to hear that there are many others out there that practice "Passive Concealment" as well. I knew that I wasn't the only one that was doing this and posted this to see what other gun owner's had to say about it. As for the query about whether or not carrying in an IWB holster would be considered "concealed carry" or not, I really can't say as I'm not an attorney. I can possibly see point for both sides of this issue but I do have CCDW so it's not an issue one way or the other for me.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Good discussion. I do think that predators and gun fanciers do and WILL notice who is carrying, because they are either 'looking' or aware on a lower level (profiling).

    So while you're hiding your firearm in plain sight, the BG will see it, the LEOs will see it, etc. So the 'deterrent effect' might not be diminished much.

    My male friend who was a gun enthusiast, back in the 80s would go to a store with me and point out at least 4-5 guys who were carrying (concealed) that I was totally oblivious to. (back then being a noob to handguns). He was like the Sherlock Holmes, I thought of detecting CC.

    Now I know what he was doing, looking for profiles, tells and printing and watched people reaching for things and how they held their shirt down in the wind and so on.

    When my other (female) friend went into the store last spring and took her jacket off and forgot she had on her LCR .357 Magnum on at 4-5 O'clock, because of her 'curves' and her chest and face, nobody saw she had on a gun. The gun blended into her waist and people looked at her body not her back hip. Best 'passive concealment' ever, heh.

    Anyway, I digress.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 12-28-2011 at 09:58 PM.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keltec View Post
    But I would like to point out the fact that carrying concealed completely defeats the purpose of Open Carrying a firearm in public.
    2am talk?

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    2am talk?
    I think some people type before they read the whole thread. He missed the fact that no one is actually talking about comcealing.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Although I open carry, as it is my right, and legal in my state, we know that not everybody knows or understands the laws. I usually will dress so that my firearm is not the center of attention. I will also sit, when in a restaurant, so my firearm is not out in the walkway. As was stated earlier, it's not concealed. It's plainly in sight. I'm sure if I dressed all in bright pink, and strapped on a Hello Kitty Pink holster and firearm, you would still be able to see it. But dressing so as not to draw attention to your rig, in my experience, tends to minimize the panic factor. I often have lunch with friends, and because I dress/position myself, to avoid attention, they comment, after I mention that I'm carrying, that they didn't even notice.

    I don't think your color choice in clothing would ever be called into question, as long as that fashion choice did not cover your firearm. The question to ask, "is the firearm visble, in plain sight?"

    Believe me, no matter how you dress, some people will notice. I'm carrying openly so that I have the tools and means to defend myself. It's not about making a statement to all those I encounter. And lastly, I don't want to frighten anybody, that only results in extra attention. I'm more than happy to talk with local LE, (I know some of them personally) and educating the public, but sometimes I'm just in a hurry to conduct my business and move along.

    These are just MY opinions and experiences. Your results may vary. ;o)
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 12-29-2011 at 01:24 PM.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades View Post
    Well, if I were carrying it mainly for deterrence & awareness, I guess it would defeat those two purposes but when I OC (about 50% of the time), it's more for educational purposes. I work to help promote the image of the safe and informed gun owner around my parts. If I'm not feeling well and going to have to be out and about with little to no free time in my day, I'll just CC my sidearm.
    I think thebigsd was referring to awareness as in "making others aware of the right." In other words, education, as you suggested. However, how will you achieve your goal of education if the average person doesn't notice your firearm?

    I was hanging out with a friend the other day in downtown Seattle, and he was open carrying a little .380 in a black nylon holster. You could barely see the grip sticking out. He said he likes that it looks like any other black lump on someone's belt, and so doesn't get hassled. To me, one of the prime motivations for OC'ing rather than CC'ing is the ability to carry a full-size combat handgun. Since my friend has his CPL, and since he clearly was unlikely to educate any other citizens, I had to wonder why he was OC'ing at all.

    Carry on.

  15. #15
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Good discussion. I do think that predators and gun fanciers do and WILL notice who is carrying, because they are either 'looking' or aware on a lower level (profiling).

    So while you're hiding your firearm in plain sight, the BG will see it, the LEOs will see it, etc. So the 'deterrent effect' might not be diminished much.

    My male friend who was a gun enthusiast, back in the 80s would go to a store with me and point out at least 4-5 guys who were carrying (concealed) that I was totally oblivious to. (back then being a noob to handguns). He was like the Sherlock Holmes, I thought of detecting CC.

    Now I know what he was doing, looking for profiles, tells and printing and watched people reaching for things and how they held their shirt down in the wind and so on.

    When my other (female) friend went into the store last spring and took her jacket off and forgot she had on her LCR .357 Magnum on at 4-5 O'clock, because of her 'curves' and her chest and face, nobody saw she had on a gun. The gun blended into her waist and people looked at her body not her back hip. Best 'passive concealment' ever, heh.

    Anyway, I digress.
    Yes Badger, that would be masterful passive concealment. *LOL* Then again there'll always be those like me that might notice that figure but would pick up on the sidearm and be totally impressed with her.
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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Cool

    I like how this thread has been revived by newcomer's and some old one's alike. I don't often sit down to write a new beginning thread all that often but when I do take the time, I like for them to be well received, at least in general. *LOL* I understand that not everyone will always share my POV or thoughts on some of the topics I post and that's OK, this is America after all and we all have our own thoughts on matters. Being able to bring new ideas and thoughts to this forum makes me feel asthough I've helped open up a new frame of thought or a new avenue on an old topic.

    With this topic though, as I said previously, one would need to exercise caution when practicing Passive Concealment due to the fact that some LEO's out there might not view this style of OC as truly OC being that it utilizes an IWB holster and the colours of said clothing, holster & sidearm. I, personally, would only recommend this style of OC if you have your CCDW, just in case.

    For those that have pointed out the fact that this is afterall, mainly an Open Carry site; please keep in mind that this style of carry IS OC! That's not to say that mentioning CC, either directly or indirectly is a bad or taboo thing. We are at the end of the day, Gun Owner's asn no matter how we choose to carry we are all on the same side of the issue: SAFETY, SELF DEFENSE & EDUCATION are paramount! I've seen and read forum threads where the individuals posting are actually ripping each other apart over their decided styles in carry and this is just wrong to the extreme.

    We are a Brotherhood; We are Protectors, We are Educators, We are Watchdogs! I know that chances are s.omeone out there might come back on my use of the term "Watchdogs" but for lack of better term , that's what we are. We are to be situationally aware of our surroundings and those that we might encounter daily. For lack of being situationally aware, our lives and that of others could be endangered on a daily basis.

    Now get out there my fellow gun owners's, go out there and work to help educate those the might seen as Sheeple. Carry On (pun intended)!
    Last edited by neuroblades; 12-29-2011 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Spelling & Such
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Here here!

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    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Great thread.

    I can't wait for the day when I'm more comfortable OC. I don't do it for simple fact that with my job I am in and out of Assisted living facilities and I know that the laws of the land don't allow carry of any kind in them. Also the fact that I live in a small town, were the local PD thinks they are king kong prevents me from carrying in such a way, bc people in the town tend to frighten easily keeps me from doing it. So, I will just wait on my CCDW license to arrive and carry that way.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewGunOwner View Post
    Also the fact that I live in a small town, were the local PD thinks they are king kong prevents me from carrying in such a way, bc people in the town tend to frighten easily keeps me from doing it.
    If I might inquire, where in Kentucky do you live that the loval PD have this mindset?
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuroblades
    The weapon is OC for all intents and purposes but being that everything is black and dark, it blends into the black.
    I did this unintentionally in NOV [black pants, grey sweater, blue jacket (tucked behind the holster)], & it's resulted in being charged with ccw because the [deleted] cop didn't see it the first time she looked in my car. (Hence the plea for help w/ legal fees.)

    So at least in that instance, it turned out badly.
    I've done it on purpose when I could wear just a polo & pants, & had no problems. (Of course, that was before OC in a car was legal, so I was just walking around.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    What "laws of the land" prohibit "carry of any kind" in assisted living facilities?
    KRS 237.111 Subsection 17, or a health care facility under KRS Chapter 216b.

    If I might inquire, where in Kentucky do you live that the loval PD have this mindset?

    I myself have not had any run ins with local LEO, just from what I have been told. Maybe I should've not made this statement until I had, had a run in with a local. My mistake.

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    Section 111 does not exist in KRS 237, I believe. Also, I believe that the provision in KRS 216b states that a healthcare facility MAY prohibit CONCEALED weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    Section 111 does not exist in KRS 237, I believe. Also, I believe that the provision in KRS 216b states that a healthcare facility MAY prohibit CONCEALED weapons.
    I meant 110. I got index finger happy and didn't proofread. All the facilities that I cater to prohibt against carrying of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot;1681861[SIZE=4
    In fact, it seems to me that a person who was confined to a "health care facility" could make the case that the "facility" was his "home" and possession of a firearm was his right under both the Ky and US constitution.[/SIZE]
    Unless Kentucky has a statute prohibiting landlords from restricting the possession of firearms by tenants, a resident of a heath-care facility has entered into a private business contract with the owner of said facility, and is bound to whatever terms he agreed to when he signed the contract.

    Other than that, no need to be such a dick. It's OK to type in normal font, also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Private business contracts do not supersede the state constitution. You can not negotiate your natural rights away. You type the way you like and I'll type the way I like. I am old and have vision problems, thank you. Now who's the dick?

    1. Private property rights supercede the RKBA. Without private property, there can be no other rights. Every state allows private property owners to regulate the carry of firearms on their private property, unless there is a special statute governing landlord-tenant relationships, which you have failed to produce.

    2. You. Seems that you could read my post just fine. BTW, the reference wasn't just to your font...try having a conversation instead of bellowing, you curmudgeon.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 01-12-2012 at 12:26 AM.

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