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Thread: Florida jurisdictions scrambling to comply! Can we do it here?

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    Florida jurisdictions scrambling to comply! Can we do it here?

    http://www.heraldtribune.com/article...rictions&tc=ar

    City and county officials across the state are scrambling to undo local ordinances restricting firearms before a new state law takes effect Oct. 1. The law imposes personal fines of up to $5,000 for local officials who overreach state gun regulations.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Not with the current Governor and legislature.

    We need to elect a governor who actually posses a clue before they can clue anyone else in to preemption. I doubt Gregoire even knows what State Preemption is.

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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Not with the current Governor and legislature.
    Maybe if we position it as a way to reduce the budget shortfall...

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hardin View Post
    Maybe if we position it as a way to reduce the budget shortfall...
    That might just work. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Not with the current Governor and legislature.

    We need to elect a governor who actually posses a clue before they can clue anyone else in to preemption. I doubt Gregoire even knows what State Preemption is.
    Well, Mckenna just might win. In that lies our hope.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovenox View Post
    well, mckenna just might win. In that lies our hope.
    qft

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    Violations of RCW Title 9.41 are already a misdemeanor. That includes preemption. Theoretically stricter than Florida, which seems to only level civil penalties. The problem in Washington is one of enforcement.
    Last edited by deanf; 09-22-2011 at 07:22 PM.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hardin View Post
    Maybe if we position it as a way to reduce the budget shortfall...
    Well, I did bring up to the committee last legislative session that lowering the CPL age to 18 would increase revenue.

    Buuuutt it didn't work.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    It will work like in Florida if we do like Florida did

    Put a nice big fine in place for failure to comply with the law, payable by those responsible (their pocket, not the taxpayers). As it stands in Washington there is no penalty for not following the preemption law. Nothing to stop passage of these laws and subsequent arrests. Charges may well be dropped but what of the cost to the detainee?

    If idiots like former Mayor Nickels and current buffoon Mike McGinn were faced with fines (again paid from their pocket) for passing laws in conflict with "preemption" they wouldn't even be thinking of them. The current attitude in many jurisdictions appears to be "Ok, it's against the State Law. So what, what are you going to do about it"?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    As it stands in Washington there is no penalty for not following the preemption law.
    But that's not really true. RCW 9.41.810 makes violations of RCW 9.41 a misdemeanor. Title 9.41 includes preemption, courthouse storage, etc. The problem is one of enforcement.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    But that's not really true. RCW 9.41.810 makes violations of RCW 9.41 a misdemeanor. Title 9.41 includes preemption, courthouse storage, etc. The problem is one of enforcement.
    Misdemeanors in WA are punishable by up to 90 days in Jail and/or a $1,000 fine. I'm sure the intent of the Legislature was to make you and I subject to enforcement, not public officials passing these laws.

    Yes, you're right there is no enforcement. Not much of a penalty either IMHO.

    Make it a Gross Misdemeanor (1 year and $5,000) with prosecution MANDATORY. After all, these people do have a "public trust" don't they?
    Last edited by amlevin; 09-23-2011 at 11:44 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    I think making it criminal raises it a whole level of seriousness. Mandatory prosecution? Is there any other crime that we have mandatory prosecution for? I don't think so.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I think making it criminal raises it a whole level of seriousness. Mandatory prosecution? Is there any other crime that we have mandatory prosecution for? I don't think so.
    I don't disagree that raising the level of the offense makes it more serious. Consider that the "offenders" are among those that have been elected to manage our affairs in government and that should be sufficient to treat it with more seriousness. As it stands most "officials" consider themselves to be somewhat above the law in everyday affairs. Only time it seems that any public officials are prosecuted is when they blatantly steal from the taxpayers and even then way too many get a pass.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Put a nice big fine in place for failure to comply with the law, payable by those responsible (their pocket, not the taxpayers). As it stands in Washington there is no penalty for not following the preemption law. Nothing to stop passage of these laws and subsequent arrests. Charges may well be dropped but what of the cost to the detainee?

    If idiots like former Mayor Nickels and current buffoon Mike McGinn were faced with fines (again paid from their pocket) for passing laws in conflict with "preemption" they wouldn't even be thinking of them. The current attitude in many jurisdictions appears to be "Ok, it's against the State Law. So what, what are you going to do about it"?

    The fact that they made it a personal fine just ups the ante for me. Its not until you hit their personal pocketbooks that they tend to notice and shape up rather quickly....

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    I think making it criminal raises it a whole level of seriousness. Mandatory prosecution? Is there any other crime that we have mandatory prosecution for? I don't think so.
    Like you said it is a problem with enforcement.

    Maybe a citizens lawyer on retainer willing to privately prosecute and the government reimburses the lawyer if he wins.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Like you said it is a problem with enforcement.

    Maybe a citizens lawyer on retainer willing to privately prosecute and the government reimburses the lawyer if he wins.
    When was the last successful "Private Prosecution" in the State of Washington?

    Even the Williams Family was unsuccessful convincing Judges to convene a Grand Jury in the killing of John T. Williams.

    While Private Prosecution might still be technically allowed it is under attack for the simple reason it opens up all kinds of avenues for appeal.

    Here's a portion of a paper submitted in 1968 that covers a small portion of the problem;

    http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPag...v=20&id=&page=

    Yes, there was a successful Private Prosecution in WA, DC but in Federal Court. State Courts, specifically Washington State? Where's the "Case Law"?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    You are absolutely right, but that shouldn't stop us from trying. And we have a SCOTUS decision that decided it is still our right.

    Thank you for the link, this fits in very nicely what I have been preaching for years. It also supports my premise on why we and how we are supposed to have way less law enforcement.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    What about submitting a bill applying the Florida style enforcement provisions to ALL state laws (not just 9.41.XXX)? Find some egregious examples of state officials violation OTHER (non-firearms related) laws and go on a PR field day to drum up public/popular support for an 'accountability law' the requires prosecution of public officials for violating state laws.

    Once a law is passed that applies in general, then 9.41 would be included under the umbrella, and we could start to take back our freedom from the 'only one' JABBUTs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    What about submitting a bill applying the Florida style enforcement provisions to ALL state laws (not just 9.41.XXX)? Find some egregious examples of state officials violation OTHER (non-firearms related) laws and go on a PR field day to drum up public/popular support for an 'accountability law' the requires prosecution of public officials for violating state laws.

    Once a law is passed that applies in general, then 9.41 would be included under the umbrella, and we could start to take back our freedom from the 'only one' JABBUTs.

    Thats a great idea.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    What about submitting a bill applying the Florida style enforcement provisions to ALL state laws (not just 9.41.XXX)? Find some egregious examples of state officials violation OTHER (non-firearms related) laws and go on a PR field day to drum up public/popular support for an 'accountability law' the requires prosecution of public officials for violating state laws.

    Once a law is passed that applies in general, then 9.41 would be included under the umbrella, and we could start to take back our freedom from the 'only one' JABBUTs.
    Are you sure "adding another law" is the solution?

    Another solution would be some recall elections charging some prosecutors with misfeasance for their failure/refusal to bring charges against those in Government who violate these laws (specifically RCW9.41.290;RCW9.41.300).

    Somehow I feel that adding another law would just add to the number of those that are currently ignored and will also be ignored.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Are you sure "adding another law" is the solution?

    Another solution would be some recall elections charging some prosecutors with misfeasance for their failure/refusal to bring charges against those in Government who violate these laws (specifically RCW9.41.290;RCW9.41.300).

    Somehow I feel that adding another law would just add to the number of those that are currently ignored and will also be ignored.

    Which is more feesible: Adding one more law to strike down hundreds of other laws, ordinances, etc in conflict with state preemption or recall elections, charging government employees, etc??

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Which is more feesible: Adding one more law to strike down hundreds of other laws, ordinances, etc in conflict with state preemption or recall elections, charging government employees, etc??
    The law that strikes down all these conflicting laws in various jurisdictions is there already and as it was pointed out in a previous discussion on this topic there is also a penalty for violating it. The crux of the matter is nobody is enforcing it. Putting a law in place requiring them to do so would just be another ignored law.

    Solution is to take away the jobs of those who ignore the law, and who's responsibility it was to enforce it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    The problem is that if most areas in Washington is like Whatcom County, the prosecutor is also the legal adviser for the council and the sheriff and the rest of the county gov. So who is going to prosecute? Without private prosecution the government isn't going to prosecute itself.

    I think this needs to be a definite separation between these powers there is no checking and no balancing between them.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 09-29-2011 at 09:26 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    the problem is that if most areas in washington is like whatcom county, the prosecutor is also the legal adviser for the council and the sheriff and the rest of the county gov. So who is going to prosecute? Without private prosecution the government isn't going to prosecute itself.

    I think this needs to be a definite separation between these powers there is no checking and no balancing between them.
    yep!

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    The law that strikes down all these conflicting laws in various jurisdictions is there already and as it was pointed out in a previous discussion on this topic there is also a penalty for violating it. The crux of the matter is nobody is enforcing it. Putting a law in place requiring them to do so would just be another ignored law.

    Solution is to take away the jobs of those who ignore the law, and who's responsibility it was to enforce it.


    How are you going to take those jobs away WITHOUT a new law?

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