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Thread: Found An Interesting Post About OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    Found An Interesting Post About OC

    This seems to be a growing problem.... Signs going up b/c of open carry. Not a problem in states where signs have "no force of law". Even in states where they do I just ignore them and CCW anyway! There is no doubt there is backlash. My suggestion is if you see a sign just pull a shirt over Mr. Glock and carry on. Any thoughts? I will not be restricted by sheeple, backlash over OC or for any reason. Unless there is a metal detector I just ignore all signs. Since OC started some of these signs all OC should write their Reps and demand that their rights to protect themselves supercede property owners rights. IMHO

    "rargos05-04-2010, 07:11
    My Harris Teeter in Raleigh NC just posted a "No Weapons Concealed or Otherwise" sign - I've been shopping at this store for 15 years and was shocked to see the sticker this morning.

    I spoke to their customer service representative and he said that this was a response to customers being upset over seeing people open carry in the stores. The ban is now statewide.

    I have a CC permit and carry on a regular basis. I'm also a very strong RKBA supporter. But I think the "open carry movement" is a perfect example of where gun owners are hurting themselves -- all it does is frighten and alienate non-gun owners and leads to the kind of behavior Harris Teeter is exhibiting.

    Do you have a right to open carry? Absolutely. Should I stop patronizing Harris Teeter and complain to their management? Already have. But in the end, this is a net loss for gun owners.

    Gun owners and especially the CC movement are gaining a lot of ground (look at Arizona, etc.), but in-your-face type activities like open carry are moving things backwards, at least here in NC."

    Source:GlockTALKhttp://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1216697.html

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Just as they are free to post such a sign, you are free to take your business somewhere else. It comes down to how deeply you believe in the RKBA and how far you are willing to go out of your way to enforce your right.

    Reminds me of a slur among bikers ... are you a fair weather rider? Well, are you a fair weather carrier or not?
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    I don't see this as a 'growing' problem. I also don't see any 'backlash' against open carry. I believe the situation cited is an isolated incident. In my humble opinion, more signs come down, than go up.

    I'd be interested in hearing other opinions on this.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Why would you give money to businesses who do not respect your rights? I guess that guy never thought about that.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Several thought to share. Some that I won't waste electrons trying to discuss.

    Private property owners have the right to control behavior on their property. Intentionally disregarding their posted sign indicates a lack of courtesy if not a penchant for illegal behavior.

    Private property owners do usually respond to the loudest voice. If they are getting "complaints" from folks who are upset at seeing folks acting in a law-abiding manner that does not threaten anybody's safety then the property owner needs to be educated on the futility of deamonizing the instrument, and that posting signs will not protect them or their customers from VCAs who only see the signs as an assurance that tey can come commit crimes with impunity as there is no chance their behavior will be opposed.

    The OC "movement" is generally not an "in your face" activity, but a means of normalizing lawful and peaceful behavior. I'll not get into the "tactical advantages" of CC or OC, as I am convinced that both sides have some advantages and some weaknesses. I'd rather concentrate on the fact that I have both a natural right and a lawful right to protect myself and that it is immoral and evil for either the government or a private property owner to attempt to restrict/remove that right. I have no intention or desire to go yell in te face of the person who tries to deny me that right, but I am willing to see if I can get them to understand what they are doing to me and to society as a whole when they impose policies that deny my right and ability to protect myself.

    As for those who are "upset" at seeing a gun - I will just mention in passing why they are not upset when they see a cop wearing a gun when they are responsible for more "blood in the streets" from shooting innocent bystanders by mistake than both OCers and CCers combined. My guess is that the fact that the cops have less restrictions on when and where they can shoot has a lot to do with that. But looking at and understanding that requires logic, which most folks seem to eschew in favor of emotionalism.

    So in closing - please do not blame the OC "movement" for any signs going up. Blame the folks who refuse to actually think through the situation and prefer to live their lives based on emotionalism.

    stay safe.
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    +1 for all above, except the moron from glocktalk in the op's post

    I for one donot take my business and my money to stores/ business that oppose my rights and beliefs.

    What purpose does ignoring no guns signs serve? you get a little thrill up your leg for doing something that daddy disaproves of? it does nothing to further the cause of normalizing personal protection, and you are spending money at a location that openly opposes peoples right to protect themselves. no good can come of it
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Why would you give money to businesses who do not respect your rights? I guess that guy never thought about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by silver View Post
    +1 for all above, except the moron from glocktalk in the op's post

    I for one donot take my business and my money to stores/ business that oppose my rights and beliefs.

    What purpose does ignoring no guns signs serve? you get a little thrill up your leg for doing something that daddy disaproves of? it does nothing to further the cause of normalizing personal protection, and you are spending money at a location that openly opposes peoples right to protect themselves. no good can come of it
    This bears repeating for all the "concealed means concealed" morons.

    This isn't an issue of OC vs. CC. It's an issue of holding onto and expanding our 2nd amendment rights. Walking into any store that has any signs excepting firearms does not deserve our business and should be shunned by any means necessary.

  8. #8
    Regular Member dmatting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    This seems to be a growing problem.... Signs going up b/c of open carry. Not a problem in states where signs have "no force of law". Even in states where they do I just ignore them and CCW anyway! There is no doubt there is backlash. My suggestion is if you see a sign just pull a shirt over Mr. Glock and carry on. Any thoughts? I will not be restricted by sheeple, backlash over OC or for any reason. Unless there is a metal detector I just ignore all signs. Since OC started some of these signs all OC should write their Reps and demand that their rights to protect themselves supercede property owners rights. IMHO
    One of the most basic tenants of freedom is the ability to own property and to do with that property what you wish. Some would argue that all other rights come from property rights (i.e. - you own your life and your body and no one can violate that and vice versa). If a free society has no property rights, then who owns property? It would be, by default, owned by the government. A society in which the government owns all property is not a free society. In that society the government owns the people as well.

    I would suggest that you are placing a single right over other rights and in the process you are working against yourself. The right to own property is not an enumerated right in our constitution but it is a right nonetheless and is just as important as the right to protect oneself and their property. (Note: I should correct myself a little bit here and state that the Fifth Amendment does protect private property from the government under the 'Just Compensation' clause.)

    You should respect the rights of others just as you expect your rights to be respected. If you are on someone else's property, their rights as the property owner trump yours. Period. The converse is true as well. You have the option to go elsewhere - no one is forcing you to patronize a business that disallows carry.

    Suggested Reading:
    http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb111/hb111-34.pdf

  9. #9
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    When I see these policies enacted due to "customer complaints", I always wonder how many complaints are they talking about. I also wonder how the complaint was worded.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    What I find humurous is the idea that because a business posted a sign today means that they must have been pro-gun yesterday or even less anti-gun yesterday. The business was just as anti-gun yesterday with no sign as they are today with a sign, otherwise they would not have posted the sign.

    A large percentage of concealed carry only folks seem to be very selfish. They really don't care about anyting until it affects them personally. And, since they hide their guns, usually by the time it affects them, it's too late to head anything off and they find themselves behind the power curve trying to react to and correct a bad situation rather than preventing it - both politically and in self-defense.
    Skid had a great post - worth reading several times.

    To be honest, the whole of my carrying a firearm is based on rational self-interest. I am very selfish - I do not want to fight, and I want to be the one choosing IF I fight. I do not plan on ever helping a 'stranger' no matter what, by using a firearm.

    I am also a coward. I will not risk my life for anyone but my loved one(s) and if a fight starts, I'm taking them and heading the other way, and would do so even if I were carrying a bazooka and a holy handgrenade. I will only use my HG if I have a big tactical advantage over evading and escaping (a guy with a butter knife?) Guy tries to car jack me, I'm driving up on the sidewalk to get away even if I have my gun on the seat next to me.

    When the criminal is down and disarmed, I'm stopping shooting and will apply first aid (if I can), but more likely, I'm calling 911 and driving a safe distance away while keeping an eye on him and my partner will be sure to get a photo of the crime scene (to establish if he was armed, before someone can grab his weapon and run off).

    If someone comes in the house and steals my LED TV, I'll hand him the remote, and go video him driving off (getting his license plate)...and so forth.

    When I was 20, 30, 40, even 50 I might have reacted differently. Now, no way, Jose.

    ====
    Oh, and on the CC part. I'll carry where there are no metal detectors in some cases, usually I avoid 'no firearm' venues. But in the near future, you won't be able to CC "hidden" - there will be IR-cameras everywhere. We will all be disarmed at some date in the near future - count on it. So trying to prevent it by OC-ing is pretty much futile, though I applaud and support those who do it.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 09-22-2011 at 06:12 PM.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter
    Not a problem in states where signs have "no force of law".
    Even in states where they do I just ignore them and CCW anyway!
    ...if you see a sign just pull a shirt over Mr. Glock and carry on.
    You'd rather break the law than shop elsewhere?
    And even if it's not against the law, why would you give money to an anti-rights establishment?

    I think the "open carry movement" is a perfect example of where gun owners are hurting themselves - all it does is frighten and alienate non-gun owners
    I have several videos on YouTube from OCing around Milwaukee, all showing a complete lack of fright from people around me in various stores, & even a bank. In fact, some customers at one store clearly noticed the pistol & smiled at me. Apologies ahead of time for the various closeups of my chest...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPeZS2_RA_Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMXBaDKUdGg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDj0TnKx0UQ
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKxYSczw_94
    The only 2 times I've ever had anyone the least bit upset were once at a church & once at a restaurant (the cashier tried to throw us out, the manager quashed that once she found out about it).

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR
    since they hide their guns, usually by the time it affects them, it's too late to head anything off and they find themselves behind the power curve trying to react to and correct a bad situation rather than preventing it - both politically and in self-defense.
    Good analysis. I'll have to remember & possibly borrow that.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson
    in the near future, you won't be able to CC "hidden" - there will be IR-cameras everywhere.
    ??
    If you're carrying IWB, belly band, SOB, wouldn't the pistol be warm?
    How would IR cameras pick that up?

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    This seems to be a growing problem.... Signs going up b/c of open carry. Not a problem in states where signs have "no force of law". Even in states where they do I just ignore them and CCW anyway! There is no doubt there is backlash. My suggestion is if you see a sign just pull a shirt over Mr. Glock and carry on. Any thoughts? I will not be restricted by sheeple, backlash over OC or for any reason. Unless there is a metal detector I just ignore all signs. Since OC started some of these signs all OC should write their Reps and demand that their rights to protect themselves supercede property owners rights. IMHO

    "rargos05-04-2010, 07:11
    My Harris Teeter in Raleigh NC just posted a "No Weapons Concealed or Otherwise" sign - I've been shopping at this store for 15 years and was shocked to see the sticker this morning.

    I spoke to their customer service representative and he said that this was a response to customers being upset over seeing people open carry in the stores. The ban is now statewide.

    I have a CC permit and carry on a regular basis. I'm also a very strong RKBA supporter. But I think the "open carry movement" is a perfect example of where gun owners are hurting themselves -- all it does is frighten and alienate non-gun owners and leads to the kind of behavior Harris Teeter is exhibiting.

    Do you have a right to open carry? Absolutely. Should I stop patronizing Harris Teeter and complain to their management? Already have. But in the end, this is a net loss for gun owners.

    Gun owners and especially the CC movement are gaining a lot of ground (look at Arizona, etc.), but in-your-face type activities like open carry are moving things backwards, at least here in NC."

    Source:GlockTALKhttp://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1216697.html
    This is a perfect example of why OC should be done tastefully rather than "in your face."
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fisherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    Since OC started some of these signs all OC should write their Reps and demand that their rights to protect themselves supercede property owners rights. IMHO
    No sir! Your rights don't supersede anyones property rights. If I have a store, I can do whatever I want with that store and the property it's on. I can deny access to anyone I want and for whatever reason I want. I'd have a sign at the door that says, "No Unarmed Persons Allowed Unless Accompanied By Armed Person". LOL

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    This is a perfect example of why OC should be done tastefully rather than "in your face."
    What shall determine the level of tastefulness? Whether or not it could be seen is the benchmark for some - that being too much in their face.

    Was working on my truck yesterday. Got dirty and greasy and OC'd the entire time, including at numerous parts store. Nary a word was said about it - guess I was tasteful enough.
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  16. #16
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    ??
    If you're carrying IWB, belly band, SOB, wouldn't the pistol be warm?
    How would IR cameras pick that up?
    There will always be (complicated?) counter-measures. Something to break up the outline. Something to warm the piece might be possible but consider that IR shows different colors in a background of warms. So you'd have a 'red' tummy and outlined inside the tummy area would be an orange gun-shaped item.

    What will happen is LE will be checking permits on everyone, and BGs will get hold of an IR detecting device and use it...maybe to go gun shopping? IR masking agents and bags will become illegal, IDK, whatever is the outcome, we are in a short 'honeymoon' period WRT carrying a personal HG. Obama is already trying to disarm us by apply to some international treaties, or so I've heard.

    Hope not, but I figure we have 5-10 years until that happens. All it will take is a staged incident to create an outcry.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
    No sir! Your rights don't supersede anyones property rights. If I have a store, I can do whatever I want with that store and the property it's on. I can deny access to anyone I want and for whatever reason I want. I'd have a sign at the door that says, "No Unarmed Persons Allowed Unless Accompanied By Armed Person". LOL
    Not quite. There are several classes of "Protected Persons" that would get you in a position where they would own your store if you prohibited them entering your store. No property rights there.

    I like this one: "I'd have a sign at the door that says, "No Unarmed Persons Allowed Unless Accompanied By Armed Person"
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Regular Member Paul Coleman's Avatar
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    Today was an interesting day for me. I me my first open carry person in public. I ask him several questions and we talked for awhile. I have always carried concealed even before they had permits (which I now have), I always figured I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six any day. I do believe that open carry sends a strong message to the criminal element and I dont see anything wrong with that. If the situation here in my town continues to digress we may all be openly carrying just to stay safe. I do not see this as an "in your face" thing. If people are acting responsibly and not trying to draw attention to themselves I see nothing wrong with open carry.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Paul Coleman -

    Welcome to OCDO and the notion of open carrying. It seems you "get it".

    If something like 10% of the population is armed, and something like 10% of that group carries on a daily basis, and 10% of that group carries openly, there are still 1 out of every 100 folks who own firearms walking around with them openly. That's a heck of a lot more folks than there are cops and more importantly, more than there are BGs.

    Now not all the BGs are going to give up their antisocial ways and seek full-time employment as chior boys and part-time finders of the cure for cancer, but some of them might. And for those that do not, they know the risk they are taking is more than merely academic. (Like most folks I do not carry to pretend to be a cop or super-hero, but to protect myself. If one BG decides not to rob/rape me because they see my openly carried handgun then I've won.)

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    This bears repeating for all the "concealed means concealed" morons.

    This isn't an issue of OC vs. CC. It's an issue of holding onto and expanding our 2nd amendment rights. Walking into any store that has any signs excepting firearms does not deserve our business and should be shunned by any means necessary.
    I would say it’s more about "restoring" our 2nd Amendment rights as they were after the Constitution was ratified rather than expanding them further. If the government would simply adhere to the "Shall not be infringed" portion of the 2nd Amendment no expansion would be necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    A large percentage of concealed carry only folks seem to be very selfish. They really don't care about anyting until it affects them personally. And, since they hide their guns, usually by the time it affects them, it's too late to head anything off and they find themselves behind the power curve trying to react to and correct a bad situation rather than preventing it - both politically and in self-defense.
    + 1 I just copied this quote into my personal journal.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

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  21. #21
    Regular Member Paul Coleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Paul Coleman -

    Welcome to OCDO and the notion of open carrying. It seems you "get it".

    If something like 10% of the population is armed, and something like 10% of that group carries on a daily basis, and 10% of that group carries openly, there are still 1 out of every 100 folks who own firearms walking around with them openly. That's a heck of a lot more folks than there are cops and more importantly, more than there are BGs.

    Now not all the BGs are going to give up their antisocial ways and seek full-time employment as chior boys and part-time finders of the cure for cancer, but some of them might. And for those that do not, they know the risk they are taking is more than merely academic. (Like most folks I do not carry to pretend to be a cop or super-hero, but to protect myself. If one BG decides not to rob/rape me because they see my openly carried handgun then I've won.)

    stay safe.
    That is true, even if the weapon stays in the holster it is a deterrent to crime. Its real simple, Kids dont jump the fence when there is a big dog in the yard, car thieves generally dont steal in front of police stations, and muggers prefer victims that are unarmed.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vermonter View Post
    ...in-your-face type activities like open carry...
    This is incorrect six ways to Sunday. If you'll review our "Why do you open carry?" thread, you'll not find a single post that says, "I open carry to be IN YOUR FACE, MAN! BOOYAH!"

    That's not why we open carry.

    That it's perceived that way by some people is simply tragic.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    my thoughts

    As skidmark said “The OC "movement" is generally not an "in your face" activity” to me it’s like wearing a tee shirt it’s there you may ask about it or ignore it’s up to you. The whole point of the OC “movement” is to get the regular Randos (generic term for random people) accustomed to seeing us carrying and we hope that some will ask and learn about the law and their rights

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRatt View Post
    ...is to get the regular Randos (generic term for random people)...
    I like that.

    ...accustomed to seeing us carrying and we hope that some will ask and learn about the law and their rights
    And that has happened.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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