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Thread: This is gun safety?????

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This is gun safety?????

    I just finished looking at the "Gun Safety" classes that can be taught in schools this year. They are a far cry from the NRA Safety classes I took in grade school. These are more like "Be afraid" classes.

    This takes you to the proposed curriculum.
    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/boe/meet...ems/item_b.pdf

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    Seriously. WTH do political assassinations have to do with gun safety?

    Of course there is also the lies about how only Government Authority Figures should have gun. This thing needs a major rewrite. Obviously who ever wrote it did it in protest and tried to slip in as much anti-crap as they could.

  3. #3
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I spent the morning reviewing the material and I noticed that the contributors were hunter safety guys and a trooper. Not a firearms instructor in the bunch.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    I got to page 15.
    I believe it doesn't get any better, it can't.
    Where is the truth about the 2A, naw it couldn't have gotten past page 15.

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    Another thought....
    Kids are smart even being that young....
    What would the teacher say to a student when he/she says my Mom and Dad carry guns all the time and the are not cops....

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    Quote Originally Posted by GasCharged View Post
    What would the teacher say to a student when he/she says my Mom and Dad carry guns all the time and the are not cops....
    The teacher would probably say nothing directly to the student.... but instead call social services and report some sort of abuse/neglect because of the presence of firearms.....

    The world really has gone that mad....

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I just finished looking at the "Gun Safety" classes that can be taught in schools this year. They are a far cry from the NRA Safety classes I took in grade school. These are more like "Be afraid" classes.

    This takes you to the proposed curriculum.
    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/boe/meet...ems/item_b.pdf
    Thought that this was going to be based on the Eddie Eagle program. Instead it's a not so casually produced anti hit piece.

    The final approval date was projected to be 9/22/11. Anyone know what happened?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Cmdr_Haggis's Avatar
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    I'm no educator and my kids are way to young for elementary school, but why doesn't the BoE just adopt Eddie Eagle and incorporate him in to the lesson plans? All this stuff about Finnigan the Fox and there is already a perfect "mascot" for gun safety and kids. (Is it just me or does old Finnigan look like a copy of the Firefox mascot?)


    Edit: do these sorts of things come up for public discussion or do we just hope our legistators are able to see this proposal for what it is?
    Last edited by Cmdr_Haggis; 09-23-2011 at 10:12 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    This poposed curriculum seems to be based on the notion that "In spite of our desires to the contrary, guns exist in the homes and lives of our students. How can we (educators) make students aware of this "problem"?

    It will be interesting to hear the teacher's response when some kid reports that s/he watched the "Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer Christmas Special" on TV, and that Yukon Cornelius has a gun. I hope s/he also reports that their recently purchased Yukon Cornelius tree ornament doesn't have a gun, and asks what "What did he do?"

    On a more serious note, I reviewed the proposed curriculum and noted that:

    There is no mention of the role of firearms (they're always called "guns") for self defense;

    There is no mention of the role of firearms as tools of the criminal or how a kid should react in the face of such a danger (stop, drop & roll equivalent?) (with the possible exception of the references to movies, TV and video games (I bet GTA will be a popular discussion));

    There is no mention of the legality of Open Carry;

    There appears to be a theme that only certain "government sanctioned" personnel and/or "sportsmen" should have guns.

    Granted, many of these topics can be way too complex for an elementary school class, but omitting them leaves the program incomplete.

    Some kids will inadvertantly "rat out" their parents or other family members. What should the teacher (be required to) do with this information? What about kids who have lost family or friends to a shooting?
    Last edited by 2a4all; 09-23-2011 at 12:01 PM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Regular Member sst0185's Avatar
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    Angry

    community helper?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Cmdr_Haggis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    ...

    There is no mention of the legality of Open Carry;

    There appears to be a theme that only certain "government sanctioned" personnel and/or "sportsmen" should have guns.

    Granted, many of these topics can be way too complex for an elementary school class, but omitting them leaves the program incomplete.

    Some kids will inadvertantly "rat out" their parents or other family members. What should the teacher (be required to) do with this information? What about kids who have lost family or friends to a shooting?
    Perhaps a good solution would be to put liner notes in the curriculum which does say that open carry is perfectly legal and that many folks do carry a firearm. Then at least the teachers themselves know these facts and are better prepared to answer those sorts of questions from their students. Just as the general public is only becoming aware of open carry, so, too, are many teachers I'd wager.

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    Proposal no more

    Looks like it was approved yesterday per the Times-Dispatch article;

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/l...d--ar-1330598/

    according to the author this was supposed to "provide background information on how to use guns and the consequences of their misuse."

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Apparently, according to the document, per18.2-308 those of us who carry for personal protection without possessing a CHP are not doing so lawfully.

    That bothers me for a number of reasons. Primarily, citing 18.2-308 as "the law" regarding the authority for the carrying of firearms for personal protection suggests that only concealed carry of a handgun is allowed unless you are a cop or carrying out ordered military activity.

    Having "discovered" this on pages i and ii of the Introduction, I stopped reading so I could go find my meds and take them before reading any further. There are not many breakable objects in my cave, and the few there are cost a fair sum to replace. I'd like to spend my money for other reasons.

    It seems this document will need to be pored over and a line by line review will need to be submitted to the various Powers That Be, notifying them of both factual inaccuracies and attempts at indoctrination as opposed to safety instruction.

    Someone go saddle up my donkey, as I expect there are a great number of windmills in need of being tilted at.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    "An even larger number of children are hurt by nonfatal gun-related injuries." page 8

    Larger than what? This statement comes out of the blue with no preceeding numbers.

    In 2009, 18 individual injuries age <14 discharged from hospitals in Virginia, though there could be a lower number of kids injured since you can sustain more than 1 injury (probably related to different body areas involved)

    10 deaths for 2009, half of which were labeled as homicide.

    So for 2009, under age 14, 5 deaths and less than 18 injured. These are very sad but does it justify the need for a statewide referendum for elementary schools, especially when there is a program available from the NRA.

    Stats from:

    http://www.vahealth.org/Injury/voirs/

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Apparently, according to the document, per18.2-308 those of us who carry for personal protection without possessing a CHP are not doing so lawfully.

    That bothers me for a number of reasons. Primarily, citing 18.2-308 as "the law" regarding the authority for the carrying of firearms for personal protection suggests that only concealed carry of a handgun is allowed unless you are a cop or carrying out ordered military activity.

    Having "discovered" this on pages i and ii of the Introduction, I stopped reading so I could go find my meds and take them before reading any further. There are not many breakable objects in my cave, and the few there are cost a fair sum to replace. I'd like to spend my money for other reasons.

    It seems this document will need to be pored over and a line by line review will need to be submitted to the various Powers That Be, notifying them of both factual inaccuracies and attempts at indoctrination as opposed to safety instruction.

    Someone go saddle up my donkey, as I expect there are a great number of windmills in need of being tilted at.

    stay safe.
    Perhaps this is one of those instances where no (OC prohibition) law doesn't work to our advantage because it can't be referenced.

    You're probably right about the windmills, but you'll more succsssfully tilt them from an elephant!

    I also didn't notice any reference(s) to either the US Constitution (2A) or the VA State Constitution (Art 2, Sect 13). Are they waiting for middle school civics classes to address these issues?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Better to just ignore those truths they find unpleasant.

    Why would they want to mention legal OC or the 2A? That might not get the right message to "The Children". Where is that head banging into a brick wall icon when I need it?............

  17. #17
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I sent an email asking why there are no firearms instructors on the advisory committee.

    Hunter safety ain't gonna cut it this time (like the CHP acceptable training law). I'm still scratching my head over that one.

    ETA - I just looked up some of the acronyms under people's titles. One person is some kind of archery coordinator......

    Archery? really?
    Last edited by ProShooter; 09-23-2011 at 05:26 PM.
    James Reynolds

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    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    Why would they want to mention legal OC or the 2A? That might not get the right message to "The Children". Where is that head banging into a brick wall icon when I need it?............
    Happy to provide it........

    If you can't see the icons/smilies, then your options are not set up to allow same.

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    As a general statement, IMHO this program is NOT what our legislators envisioned - it needs to be fixed!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    I sent an email asking why there are no firearms instructors on the advisory committee.

    Hunter safety ain't gonna cut it this time (like the CHP acceptable training law). I'm still scratching my head over that one.

    ETA - I just looked up some of the acronyms under people's titles. One person is some kind of archery coordinator......

    Archery? really?
    But, but they are educators - wooops that is the problem
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It's time to hit the GA members that sold us this bill of goods.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's bad... offensively bad.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's time to hit the GA members that sold us this bill of goods.
    Laws without teeth and controls are barely half good. Too much wiggle room left. This is an example of good thinking (we expected it to be fair) gone astray.

    If we could get the right to carry in schools, this could be reversed in less than six days - giving us at least 2 days to rest.

    What I have to remember though is that this is the Shi.. City of Richmond.

    Did I just not say what I think I didn't say?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Not until 5th grade do we get this simple statement:
    Students will learn gun safety is an intentional practice that can help prevent gun accidents, injuries and deaths.
    the kindergarten through second-grade lessons address recognizing professionals who use guns for safety reasons and individuals who safely use guns in sporting events
    Several places say:
    Discuss with the children different ways they may have seen someone using or carrying a gun.
    NONE of the answers given are remotely similar to "self-protection".

    pg. 55:
    Hunting and sport shooting are responsible reasons for an adult to have a gun.
    Implying that those are the only reasons anyone not LEO or military should have one.

    According to the 2002 Virginia Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance Survey, approximately 38 percent of Virginians keep firearms in or around their homes; and 1 in 6 are unlocked and loaded.
    So slightly more than 6% of the population keeps a gun ready for defense.
    And this is a problem why? If it's kept under control of an adult why even count it?

    Teachers should be aware that gun safety discussions may elicit an emotional response in students. Responses may include a student sharing how many guns his/her parent has in their home...
    Each school division needs to develop protocols and procedures that enfold community culture and norms to address sensitive student disclosures.
    The protocol should include guidance for responding to a student’s disclosure in the classroom. Consulting with a school counselor, social worker, psychologist, student assistance specialist or principal should be included in the protocol.
    So if a kid mentions that his family has guns, maybe they participate in IDPA or bullseye or whatever, a psychologist is supposed to be called??

    LOL @ pg. 14: "circle pictures of people who carry a gun as part of their job."
    In some enlightened states, everyone except the firefighter. A friend of mine is a UT instructor & has taught several classes made of only schoolteachers, all of whom now carry at work.

    As a culmination of all the gun safety rules learned from grades kindergarten through grade five, fifth-grade students will sign the pledge to commit to preventing gun violence
    But in the introductory guidelines, it says they'll "be given the opportunity" to sign...
    Peer pressure & force by the teacher won't make it voluntary.
    They're supposed to sign it, then make a poster.

    Uh oh... pg. 71:
    If you suspect someone has a gun at school or another public area and he or she does not look like a community helper, tell a trusted adult.
    In other words, be suspicious of anyone not in uniform who has a gun.

    Each year in the United States tragedy strikes within a local city or town when a gun is mishandled or fired accidentally. In a number of these situations the life of a young person ends. There is no possibility of that person reaching his or her dreams because of the mishandling of a gun.

    Where are the "wear your seatbelt", "wear your lifejacket", etc. indoctrination programs?
    Those would save many more lives than this rubbish.

    I'd love to do the Eddie Eagle program at local schools, both for the much-needed safety education and because I'd write it into the contract that I was bringing real guns as part of the educational materials.
    Anything the kids could get to wouldn't be loaded, of course.

  24. #24
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Personally, I am an object of concern for kids who would be taught by this program. I OC, don't dress like a "Community Helper", and have at least one unlocked, loaded gun around the house at all times. Oh, wait; that's the one I'm carrying....

    Since participation in this program is voluntary by a given school district, it sounds like these issues need to be brought to the attention of local school boards.

    Newport News has not posted the time of their next meeting as of this writing.

    MKEgal, your analysis will make excellent talking points.
    Last edited by 2a4all; 09-24-2011 at 12:05 AM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  25. #25
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    I learned my first structured spats of Firearms Safety in 9th grade. I joined the Army JROTC at Woodbridge High School and then also joined their Rifle team. We shot .177 air pellet rifles at targets roughly 30 feet away. We learned the laser principle, breathing techniques, trigger techniques, sighting techniques, etc... I was 2nd in command of the rifle team my second year, commander in my junior year. Something like that would be WAY better than this fox nonsense...

    This crapola is just as it has been described above... "indoctrination". I've learned tons since I got out of school oh so long (yet so short) a time ago. I now work as Armed Security at a Northern Va Military Installation and hope to go overseas to make the big bucks in the "Danger-zones" soon. My (future) kids will be well trained and pre-indoctrinated against the mass medias/politics/school systems teachings...

    I hope someone can get through on this thing, as this, along with sex ed and drivers ed, are SEVERELY lacking in US schools.

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