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Thread: Question about Open Carry in the USPS ?

  1. #1
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    Question about Open Carry in the USPS ?

    I'm still not certain if one can legally open carry in a US Postal office?

    Any information would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    NO! its a federal place.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Welcome dashraider! Although the story that I've linked below is in response to questions by Ohioans in regard to whether they may carry a firearm on USPS property, the summary is applicable to carriers of all sorts. You will find that other than for bringing long guns onto postal property for the purpose of lawfully shipping them, no firearms are permitted on USPS property, including parking lots.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Conce...rude-awakening
    Last edited by jmelvin; 09-22-2011 at 02:00 PM.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dashraider
    I'm still not certain if one can legally open carry in a US Postal office?

    Any information would be appreciated.
    Don't think about concealing either, carrying on postal property is banned, open or concealed. You can't even store them in your vehicle if it's parked on postal property. As of October 2009 there is a case law decision on the matter, US vs Dorosan

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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    No, do not carry on federal property.

    Welcome to the forum though, and remember the post office will deliver stamps.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Boycott the usps at all costs! I ship FEDEX/UPS for ebay. No more post office.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    NO! its a federal place.
    Quote Originally Posted by tcmech View Post
    No, do not carry on federal property.
    Can someone quote the law that specifies that we cannot carry on Federal property, such as National Parks, Post Offices, or National Forests?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by DrMark; 09-22-2011 at 07:29 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmark View Post
    can someone quote the law that specifies that we cannot carry on federal property, such as national parks, post offices, or national forests?

    Thanks.
    TITLE 18 - crimes and criminal procedure
    PART I - crimes
    CHAPTER 44 - firearms
    -STATUTE-
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
    or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
    not more than 1 year, or both.

    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon
    be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes
    to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal
    facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or
    imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
    subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
    facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon,
    or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as
    provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
    prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
    possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to
    hunting or other lawful
    purposes.

    I say carry on.
    Last edited by Schlitz; 09-22-2011 at 07:37 PM.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    Can someone quote the law that specifies that we cannot carry on Federal property, such as National Parks, Post Offices, or National Forests?

    Thanks.
    Title 39 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Chapter 1 Part 232.1 states no person while on post office property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes

    Note that it does not say 'for lawful purposes', instead it states 'official purposes'.

    I do not suggest you test them on this
    Last edited by scouser; 09-22-2011 at 07:42 PM.

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    You can carry in the open, unfenced parking lot,

    You cannot carry or have it in your car inside of the fenced in portion of the parking lot.

    You cannot carry inside the building unless you are mailing a rifle through the USPS or if you're a FFL and shipping handguns.

    We hashed this out pretty good in the Kentucky forum.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...highlight=usps

  11. #11
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    You can carry in the open, unfenced parking lot,



    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...highlight=usps
    My post officer has no fence, only in the back for the trucks. It's still the post office grounds.

    No means no.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 09-22-2011 at 08:05 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    Can someone quote the law that specifies that we cannot carry on Federal property, such as National Parks, Post Offices, or National Forests?

    Thanks.
    It appears some you don't grasp why Dr. Mark posted what he did. In not one but two cases responders stated flatly that it was illegal to carry on federal property and this is simply not a flat truth. We have restrictions on carrying at the USPS, within federal facilities, on Army Corps of Engineering lands, military bases and who knows what; but national parks are fair game, so are national forests depending on what each state lays out and Bureau of Land Management land is fair game for carrying as well. Due to these facts the flat statement that carry on federal property is forbidden is not correct.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 09-22-2011 at 11:00 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin
    It appears some you don't grasp why Dr. Mark posted what he did. In not one but two cases responders stated flatly that it was illegal to carry on federal property and this is simply not a flat truth. We have restrictions on carrying at the USPS, within federal facilities, on Army Corps of Engineering lands, military bases and who knows what; but national parks are fair game, so are national forests depending on what each state lays out and Bureau of Land Management land is fair game for carrying as well. Due to these facts the flat statement that carry on federal property is forbidden is not correct.
    actually .. that is why I ONLY responded reference the post office and made no mention of any of the other places. That and the fact the other places were irrelevent to the original thread, which only asked about USPS.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    Don't think about concealing either, carrying on postal property is banned, open or concealed. You can't even store them in your vehicle if it's parked on postal property. As of October 2009 there is a case law decision on the matter, US vs Dorosan
    There is another new case going through here in Colorado that started after the McDonald v Chicago verdict was in. I can't remember the name of it right now, but I'll try and find it again.

    In the mean time... No, just don't.

  15. #15
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    Can someone quote the law that specifies that we cannot carry on Federal property, such as National Parks, Post Offices, or National Forests?
    Sorry, I was trying to be subtle (as jmelvin surmised)... too subtle perhaps.

    There is no ban on carrying in Federal places, or Federal property (again, as jmelvin has pointed out).

    Federal facilities (buildings) are covered by USCs930 and the CFR address Post Offices specifically. Neither addresses Federal property in general, though that notion is frequently posted on this forum and others.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    Sorry, I was trying to be subtle (as jmelvin surmised)... too subtle perhaps.

    There is no ban on carrying in Federal places, or Federal property (again, as jmelvin has pointed out).

    Federal facilities (buildings) are covered by USCs930 and the CFR address Post Offices specifically. Neither addresses Federal property in general, though that notion is frequently posted on this forum and others.
    read much?

    TITLE 18 - crimes and criminal procedure
    PART I - crimes
    CHAPTER 44 - firearms
    -STATUTE-
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
    possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
    or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
    not more than 1 year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon
    be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes
    to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal
    facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or
    imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
    subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
    facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon,
    or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as
    provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
    prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
    possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful
    purposes.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  17. #17
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    You can also carry around a post office if it is like the one that is in my neighborhood area. That one is in a small strip of two or three other business which all share the same parking lot and sidewalk under an overhang. So I can park, walk up to a collection box, and drop off mail. I just can't enter the post officer proper.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    TITLE 18 - crimes and criminal procedure
    PART I - crimes
    CHAPTER 44 - firearms


    I say carry on.
    Case law (Dorosan) shows us that you cannot carry on postal property.

    "carry on" sounds all chivalrous and everything but won't help you unlock the handcuffs.,
    James Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    actually .. that is why I ONLY responded reference the post office and made no mention of any of the other places. That and the fact the other places were irrelevent to the original thread, which only asked about USPS.
    The two responders I saw were ocholsteroc and tcmech. Your response was perfectly valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    You can carry in the open, unfenced parking lot,

    You cannot carry or have it in your car inside of the fenced in portion of the parking lot.
    This is not entirely accurate.

    39 CFR 232.1(a) indicates that it applies to all real property, except what is subleased to other tenants (or sidewalks with respect to specific applications of speech). That would include the parking lot(s) of a Post Office. 39 CFR 232.1(l) prohibits weapons on all Post Office property, "except for official purposes". Again, the text would apply to all property, including parking lots.

    However, 39 CFR 232.1(b)(2)states:
    Vehicles and their contents brought into, while on, or being removed from restricted nonpublic areas are subject to inspection. A prominently displayed sign shall advise in advance that vehicles and their contents are subject to inspection when entering the restricted nonpublic area, while in the confines of the area, or when leaving the area. Persons entering these areas who object and refuse to consent to the inspection of the vehicle, its contents, or both, may be denied entry; after entering the area without objection, consent shall be implied. A full search of a person and any vehicle driven or occupied by the person may accompany an arrest.
    That means that they cannot search your car in the parking lot unless it is (1) a nonpublic parking lot (i.e. fenced in to restrict use), and (2) posted that vehicles are subject to inspection. (They can still search your person as long as you are on postal property under 39 CFR 232.1(b)(1).)

    In short, 39 CFR 232.1(l) prohibits carrying in Post Office parking lots, even in your car, but 39 CFR 232.1(b)(2) restricts their ability to enforce it in the public parking lots. It's still prohibited, but they have no way to catch you as long as you leave it in your car.

    The Louisiana case (USA v. Dorosan) involved a postal employee who had parked his car in the fenced-in, nonpublic lot. As such, it was subject to search under 39 CFR 232.1(b)(2). Had he been parked off of postal property or in the public lot, his car would not have been subject to search (absent a different basis).
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 09-23-2011 at 10:24 AM.
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  21. #21
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    read much?
    More than you do, apparently.

    (hint: Do you know what the word facility means?)

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    Regular Member Cmdr_Haggis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    ...
    Do you know what the word facility means?
    ...

    Found the definition:


    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930

    § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (g) As used in this section:
    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
    IANAL, so I'm not sure what "a part thereof" means.
    Last edited by Cmdr_Haggis; 09-23-2011 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Changed my wording so it didn't appear to be mean-spirited towards anyone.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr_Haggis View Post


    IANAL, so I'm not sure what "a part thereof" means.
    A part of the buidling where the federal employee is working.

    The Hotel & Conference Center at Natural Bridge has a big building with a gift shop, butterfly exhibit, etc but in part of the basement is a U.S. Post Office.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    ..."carry on" sounds all chivalrous and everything but won't help you unlock the handcuffs.,
    Yep. That's why I swallow a handcuff key every two days.

  25. #25
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr_Haggis View Post
    Found the definition...
    Indeed. It means a building or part thereof.

    Federal facilities (that is, buildings) are covered by USCs930, and 39CFR232.1 addresses Post Offices specifically. Neither addresses Federal property in general, though the notion though the notion continues to be put forth on this forum and others.

    If there were a general ban on firearm possession on Federal property, we wouldn't be carrying in National Parks, I wouldn't have shot many matches on military installations, and so on.

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