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Thread: Booted from Cottonwood Mall

  1. #1
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    Booted from Cottonwood Mall

    I've OCed probably 30 times at Cottonwood without incident but still look for a posted sign each time I walk in (it's a habit now). A couple days ago I was shopping with the wife and, as usual, I was OCing and she was CCing. After grabbing a bite in the the food court we split up.

    After a few minutes I started walking to JCPennys to meet back up with her when a young kid (let's call him Paul Blart) on a segway comes flying up to me demanding to see my badge. It didn't click to me at first what he was getting at so I asked him to repeat himself. He got more stern (never once looking at my face) and put forth his demand again.

    I told him I don't have a badge. Before I could ask why he wanted a badge he, keeping his head held high looking like some pompous politician, informed me that this is private property. Now I get what he is on about and am ready to tell him it's not a problem and that I'll go put the gun in car when he cuts me off (I felt he was trying to pick a fight or show his amazing powers as a mall cop) and tells me I can't have that in here and proceeds to give me an ultimatum; I can leave or go put it in the car.

    Sensing that he is wanting to make this into a scene I politely inform him that I am not being combative and will gladly leave. Still looking over my head, never once looking at my face, he attempts to cut me off again (I had just finished speaking) by repeating that this is private property. I think, "okay dude you want to engage me? I'm game." I tell him that I'm complying with his request but that I wouldn't have OCed and he wouldn't have needed to ask me to leave if the mall would simply post a sign at each entrance informing the public they do not allow open carry.

    He, in his high and mighty voice, informs me that it is posted at each entrance in their "code of conduct" that no weapons are allowed and he is willing to go point it out to me. I quickly respond saying that I've carried here plenty and never saw a sign forbidding weapons but that I understand that him demanding that I not carry is perfectly within the mall's rights and that I'll leave now but that my wife is in penny's and I'll need to go get her (we never have cell service in there). As I walk away Mr. Blart throws in that he will be in the area watching me.

    I go grab the wife and on our way out we stop at the entrance (food court) we came in to look for a sign. We found nothing. I step outside, give the wife my gun to put in her purse (yes, now she's CCing two at once but at this point we dont care), and light up a smoke. After I get my fix I walk back in that entrance to look again. Ahh...there it is! I finally found their "code of conduct". It's a piece of paper about 14"x16", on one wall between the two rows of doors, perpendicular to the flow of traffic, behind the automated handicap door, at about waist level. There are probably 13 things on this list. Number 6 reads something like, "No weapons of any kind to include knives, guns"...blah blah blah..."or anything that can cause bodily harm to another person."

    My wife and I have a good laugh at the ****** mall cop, the placement and wording of the sign, and the whole situation and then leave.

  2. #2
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisNM View Post
    ...snip...
    I walk back in that entrance to look again. Ahh...there it is! I finally found their "code of conduct". It's a piece of paper about 14"x16", on one wall between the two rows of doors, perpendicular to the flow of traffic, behind the automated handicap door, at about waist level. There are probably 13 things on this list. Number 6 reads something like, "No weapons of any kind to include knives, guns"...blah blah blah..."or anything that can cause bodily harm to another person."

    My wife and I have a good laugh at the ****** mall cop, the placement and wording of the sign, and the whole situation and then leave.
    Much the same as the mall just down the street from me here in Colorado. The part that I find most funny here is that the mall itself posts much like yours (you gotta truly look for it) but the anchor stors such as Target or Barnes & Noble do not post at all. There is also no posting from the exit of the anchor into the main area of the mall.

    So, I carry all the time into the anchors. I have thought about going into the actually mall through the anchor, claiming that it isn't actually posted. While I'm pretty sure charges would not be filed, I still just prefer to not go where I know I'm not wanted.
    Last edited by JamesB; 09-23-2011 at 03:18 PM. Reason: figners can't spell without coffee.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    That sucks. I would advise againt asking them to post signs. They might just do it. Then it takes away the CC option as well. If every single entrance doesn't have a Code of Conduct posted, just use one of those not posted and you'll have plausible deniabilty.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 09-23-2011 at 04:14 PM.
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    My mall is the same way. Except it's posted on a plastic plaque and it's rule number one (I always lol at the thought of it being number one for some reason). However, I know for a fact that it's not posted at every entrance (always go in through one of the obscure entrances that has better parking-and it's not posted there), but I'm not going push the issue with them.
    Last edited by SovereignAxe; 09-23-2011 at 05:14 PM.
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    I avoid conspicuous collective consumption centers like the plague.

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    I never even looked at the malls around here. Dont care either, but we dont have open carry.
    If the stupid Mall cops want to ban something, they can keep all the gangbanger trash out.
    I dont care what else they want. Im sick of looking at Segways trollin morons who think their ninjas.

  7. #7
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR Redenck View Post
    I never even looked at the malls around here. Dont care either, but we dont have open carry.
    If the stupid Mall cops want to ban something, they can keep all the gangbanger trash out.
    I dont care what else they want. Im sick of looking at Segways trollin morons who think their ninjas.
    But, but, those are impossible to watch. They are Ninjas! You can't see Ninjas!

    Unpossible I say.

  8. #8
    Regular Member MrGlock's Avatar
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    open carry in malls

    I live in Abq, and I know someone who carried in Coronado Mall a couple of years ago. He asked security about carrying there, and he was told by a supervisor(?) that conceal carry is the only form of carry allowed in ANY mall in NM. He relayed this info to me, which really didn't apply because I already had a CCL. I have never open carried in a mall, and never planned to anyways. I've caused one too many scenes elsewhere in my younger years
    Last edited by MrGlock; 10-21-2011 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGlock View Post
    I live in Abq, and I know someone who carried in Coronado Mall a couple of years ago. He asked security about carrying there, and he was told by a supervisor(?) that conceal carry is the only form of carry allowed in ANY mall in NM. He relayed this info to me, which really didn't apply because I already had a CCL. I have never open carried in a mall, and never planned to anyways. I've caused one too many scenes elsewhere in my younger years
    The supervisor is wrong, big surprise there- someone making things up to fit their situation. There is no regulation like that.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Why go there?

    What does a mall have that you can't find elsewhere for a lot less money?

    Rent-A-*******? Overpriced Cellular? Bad Food? You like these things? :-p

    I'm not making a challenge to how you spend your money, I just don't get it. I've learned to take shopping at the mall as a sign that a person is stupid... I don't think an OC/CC person is stupid, so I'm trying to figure out the draw here...

    Why go there? It's not even about the no guns policy.

    They don't respect you, they rip you off.
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    After reading this post, I decided to see what the issue with open/concealed carrying is.

    On Friday, June 7th, I open carried in the CottonWood Mall with my son. Entering through Dillard's, I did NOT see a code of conduct or any reference to firearms displayed. From Dillard's I went to the Simon Mall kiosk and asked where in their code of conduct is firearms listed and where can a copy be found. The lady behind the counter was not sure so she radioed for security to come over. Once the security guards came over (there were two of them), they offered to show me where the code of conduct lists are placed. During the whole encounter, the security guards were friendly and polite. After seeing the code of conduct, I notified them that I will make my intended purchase and then drop my weapon off at my car. This was no problem to them, so I continued on my way.

    When I returned to the mall, I walked to all of the entrances and I believe that I have found the break-in-the-chain:
    • Code of conducts are displayed on ALL mall entrances
    • However, code of conducts are NOT displayed at store entrances (JC Penny, Dillard's, Sears, Macy's...etc).


    After discovering that they are not displayed, I went back and informed the security guards of what I found. They acknowledged that it was an issue. According to them, "This issue causes at least one person a day to open carry in the mall."
    As of now, the problem is found, but what can be done about it? I went to Dillard's and talked to their store manager, Michael Giese. He told me that he didn't mind if people open/conceal carried in his store because they follow New Mexico laws. "If you can legally do it here, then we can't stop you. Dillard's goes off the law-of-the-land", said Giese. So far so good. Now to deal with CottonWood Mall.

    Inside of the mall, near the Sears entrance is a Simon Mall office. In there I met and talked with Jeremy Strife, the CottonWood Mall property manager. During our talk, I informed him that the store entrances do NOT display a code of conduct which is one of the issues that open/conceal carry individuals have. Also that the stores that have their own entrances follow New Mexico laws and seem to think that they do not follow Simon Mall rules and regulations. Apparently, Strife was unaware of both issues and told me that he will be bringing these up at their next store manager's meeting the following day. Mr. Strife is an avid gun shooter and stated that, "If it was up to me, I would reform those rules, but since they are Simon mall's rules, I can't." He also informed me that he's brought up the firearm issue with the Simon Mall board of directors with no luck in swaying their regulations.

    More to come on the outcome of code of conduct signs being posted at EVERY entrance regardless of mall or store entrance.

    Thanks,
    CombatMedic68w


    Code of Conduct #6 covers firearms. My 1 year old son got ahold of the code of conduct so it might be a little messy hehe.
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    Oh just,,,wow...

    Quote Originally Posted by CombatMedic68w View Post
    After reading this post, I decided to see what the issue with open/concealed carrying is.

    On Friday, June 7th, I open carried in the CottonWood Mall with my son. Entering through Dillard's, I did NOT see a code of conduct or any reference to firearms displayed. From Dillard's I went to the Simon Mall kiosk and asked where in their code of conduct is firearms listed and where can a copy be found. The lady behind the counter was not sure so she radioed for security to come over. Once the security guards came over (there were two of them), they offered to show me where the code of conduct lists are placed. During the whole encounter, the security guards were friendly and polite. After seeing the code of conduct, I notified them that I will make my intended purchase and then drop my weapon off at my car. This was no problem to them, so I continued on my way.

    When I returned to the mall, I walked to all of the entrances and I believe that I have found the break-in-the-chain:
    • Code of conducts are displayed on ALL mall entrances
    • However, code of conducts are NOT displayed at store entrances (JC Penny, Dillard's, Sears, Macy's...etc).


    After discovering that they are not displayed, I went back and informed the security guards of what I found. They acknowledged that it was an issue. According to them, "This issue causes at least one person a day to open carry in the mall."
    As of now, the problem is found, but what can be done about it? I went to Dillard's and talked to their store manager, Michael Giese. He told me that he didn't mind if people open/conceal carried in his store because they follow New Mexico laws. "If you can legally do it here, then we can't stop you. Dillard's goes off the law-of-the-land", said Giese. So far so good. Now to deal with CottonWood Mall.

    Inside of the mall, near the Sears entrance is a Simon Mall office. In there I met and talked with Jeremy Strife, the CottonWood Mall property manager. During our talk, I informed him that the store entrances do NOT display a code of conduct which is one of the issues that open/conceal carry individuals have. Also that the stores that have their own entrances follow New Mexico laws and seem to think that they do not follow Simon Mall rules and regulations. Apparently, Strife was unaware of both issues and told me that he will be bringing these up at their next store manager's meeting the following day. Mr. Strife is an avid gun shooter and stated that, "If it was up to me, I would reform those rules, but since they are Simon mall's rules, I can't." He also informed me that he's brought up the firearm issue with the Simon Mall board of directors with no luck in swaying their regulations.

    More to come on the outcome of code of conduct signs being posted at EVERY entrance regardless of mall or store entrance.

    Thanks,
    CombatMedic68w


    Code of Conduct #6 covers firearms. My 1 year old son got ahold of the code of conduct so it might be a little messy hehe.
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    It is always my pleasure to welcome a new noob/troll to this forum!
    Now use that enthusiasm, and get out there and convince all of the stores in your area, to post "no guns" signs

    ..... sigh .....
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    With CombatMedic69w's enthusiasm, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he eventually informs every business in New Mexico that they have overlooked posting a "No Firearms" sign inevitably resulting in what seems to be his goal: The posting of "No Firearms" signs in as many businesses as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CombatMedic68w View Post
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    #4 - Looks like the young Paul Blart was breaking their own rules

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    The intent is clear, but those signs do not meet the state's requirements for posting of no firearms notice and are therefore not in compliance.

    I agree with the above statement about not bringing things to their attention if it's not necessary. You defeat the purpose of what you think you're doing.

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    This is why we need to contact our legislators, and get them to pass a law requiring businesses that are open to the public, are also open to anyone who is a lawful CCW or OC'r, just like they require businesses to have handicapped access. Its the same concept. If you can require handicapped access, then lawful citizens should have that same access with their guns.

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    Is it preferable that businesses aren't open and upfront about their anti-2nd Amendment views? Do we want more encounters like the one in the OP? I don't have a problem with what CombatMedic did. The worst case scenario is that the mall will properly post their asinine policy, and avoid situations like in the OP. Then we can know where not to spend our money.

    Considering how rude some OCs are towards like minded people, I can only imagine how rude some would be towards the Paul Blarts of the world. In the long run, I'd wager that CombatMedic's approach would be more productive than a bunch of combative ******** harassing mall cops. (I'm not saying that the original poster was combative in this case. I think he handled the situation fine.)

    To the OP, make sure to let others know about your experience at:

    http://friendorfoe.us/

  18. #18
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    Most Malls are structured so that the Anchor Stores own their own buildings and have a ground lease (99 years) for the land. The central area of the Mall is owned & operated by the Mall owner - Simon, etc. All of the small tenants in the Mall are leasing space from Simon. They operate like an office building - lease agreement for their space, plus gas & electric, and the pay a Common Area Maintenance fee - CAM.

    The Anchors get to do what they want - they are the big draws to the Mall, while the little guys in the middle are tennants of the Mall owner and abide by the Mall rules.

    That is why you can legally OC in the Anchors, then when you step into the common mall area, you're under the ownership of the Mall operator with his own rules.
    “Men live without other security than what their own strength and their own invention shall furnish them"
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  19. #19
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    I could definitely see some mall cop in cottonwood puling some stupid crap like this.

    I live about 7 minutes from cottonwood. This is the sad truth on the mentalities of some mall folk.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadLandsDillon View Post
    I could definitely see some mall cop in cottonwood puling some stupid crap like this.

    I live about 7 minutes from cottonwood. This is the sad truth on the mentalities of some mall folk.
    Not sure why you consider it stupid - the mall is private property and no one is forcing anyone to shop there.

    I know some very good and knowledgeable private security people. One such was a retired major from a state agency who after he retired was hired to lead mall security for a huge eastern shopping mall. Well educated and articulate, he made dealing with his people a pleasure.

    Oh, and welcome to OCDO
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    Regular Member BadLandsDillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not sure why you consider it stupid - the mall is private property and no one is forcing anyone to shop there.

    I know some very good and knowledgeable private security people. One such was a retired major from a state agency who after he retired was hired to lead mall security for a huge eastern shopping mall. Well educated and articulate, he made dealing with his people a pleasure.

    Oh, and welcome to OCDO
    Thanks for the kind welcome, Sir.

    What is stupid is his behavior towards the OP on the whole issue. I have been shopping at cottonwood for several years now and have personally seen security guards there harass people with their segway authority in the same manner.

    On another note, I have several friends involved in private security and would get into the job sector myself if it weren't for my extremely poor health at this time as well as my service and life induced mental and physical disabilities.

    Regards.
    -Dillon

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    This is why we need to contact our legislators, and get them to pass a law requiring businesses that are open to the public, are also open to anyone who is a lawful CCW or OC'r, just like they require businesses to have handicapped access. Its the same concept. If you can require handicapped access, then lawful citizens should have that same access with their guns.
    Somehow I missed this before.

    So you're in favor of the government telling people what they should be able to do and not do in their own private establishments when it comes to the right to disallow firearms?

    You are sounding like a zealot. This is not what we need.
    Last edited by AH.74; 11-20-2013 at 12:19 AM.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMOCr View Post
    This is why we need to contact our legislators, and get them to pass a law requiring businesses that are open to the public, are also open to anyone who is a lawful CCW or OC'r, just like they require businesses to have handicapped access. Its the same concept. If you can require handicapped access, then lawful citizens should have that same access with their guns.
    Since carrying a gun neither qualifies one for inclusion under the Americans with Disabilities Act nor any other special protected status what argument will you use to enforce your choice on a retailer that is a private property owner?

    Glance through this and see if you can find something useful:
    https://adata.org/lawhandbook
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 11-20-2013 at 01:14 AM. Reason: added
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  24. #24
    Regular Member cirrusly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CombatMedic68w View Post
    After reading this post, I decided to see what the issue with open/concealed carrying is.

    On Friday, June 7th, I open carried in the CottonWood Mall with my son. Entering through Dillard's, I did NOT see a code of conduct or any reference to firearms displayed. From Dillard's I went to the Simon Mall kiosk and asked where in their code of conduct is firearms listed and where can a copy be found. The lady behind the counter was not sure so she radioed for security to come over. Once the security guards came over (there were two of them), they offered to show me where the code of conduct lists are placed. During the whole encounter, the security guards were friendly and polite. After seeing the code of conduct, I notified them that I will make my intended purchase and then drop my weapon off at my car. This was no problem to them, so I continued on my way.

    When I returned to the mall, I walked to all of the entrances and I believe that I have found the break-in-the-chain:
    • Code of conducts are displayed on ALL mall entrances
    • However, code of conducts are NOT displayed at store entrances (JC Penny, Dillard's, Sears, Macy's...etc).


    After discovering that they are not displayed, I went back and informed the security guards of what I found. They acknowledged that it was an issue. According to them, "This issue causes at least one person a day to open carry in the mall."
    As of now, the problem is found, but what can be done about it? I went to Dillard's and talked to their store manager, Michael Giese. He told me that he didn't mind if people open/conceal carried in his store because they follow New Mexico laws. "If you can legally do it here, then we can't stop you. Dillard's goes off the law-of-the-land", said Giese. So far so good. Now to deal with CottonWood Mall.

    Inside of the mall, near the Sears entrance is a Simon Mall office. In there I met and talked with Jeremy Strife, the CottonWood Mall property manager. During our talk, I informed him that the store entrances do NOT display a code of conduct which is one of the issues that open/conceal carry individuals have. Also that the stores that have their own entrances follow New Mexico laws and seem to think that they do not follow Simon Mall rules and regulations. Apparently, Strife was unaware of both issues and told me that he will be bringing these up at their next store manager's meeting the following day. Mr. Strife is an avid gun shooter and stated that, "If it was up to me, I would reform those rules, but since they are Simon mall's rules, I can't." He also informed me that he's brought up the firearm issue with the Simon Mall board of directors with no luck in swaying their regulations.

    More to come on the outcome of code of conduct signs being posted at EVERY entrance regardless of mall or store entrance.

    Thanks,
    CombatMedic68w


    Code of Conduct #6 covers firearms. My 1 year old son got ahold of the code of conduct so it might be a little messy hehe.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Why are you assisting businesses in identifying where and how they should post Criminal Safe Zone signs? And to such an elaborate extent?

    Ridiculous. I smell a troll.
    I want to keep our founding fathers' visions and rights for this country pure. I implore you to do the same.

  25. #25
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    Since carrying a gun neither qualifies one for inclusion under the Americans with Disabilities Act nor any other special protected status what argument will you use to enforce your choice on a retailer that is a private property owner?
    I think we should look at this.

    As a retailer, as a business, store owner, however you want to describe it, there are already certain things the government requires you to do on your private property. This is the price/cost of doing business.

    I agree with your house/your rules, but in the case of having a business where you are inviting the public in, to come and go as a course of conducting business is very much different than your private home.

    As such, I think the business should have 2 options, to guarantee your safety while you are in their establishment with metal detectors or other form of ensuring there are no guns or knives, etc elsewhere in the establishment (therefore able to post a no guns sign) or having no right to take away your right of self defense.

    The business has taken the option of inviting you in to their property, they should not then be able to remove your ability to defend yourself. Yes, you have every right to NOT go into that store, they also have every right to NOT invite the public in to their private property. By doing so, they have to give up certain private property rights, following other well established rules and regs for operating a business.

    As an FYI, I own and operate a business, and obviously have no issue with customers carrying in my shop.

    Thoughts?

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