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Stopped for OC in Spokane

fhsantos

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
42
Location
Spokane
I go to the Spokanimal Dog Park regularly to excerise my American Bulldogs, most of the people there know me & because of research & reading I have now excerised my right to open carry more often. Obviously there are a few new people in & out of there who don't know who I am, I realized I was getting a few funny looks but thought nothing of it since I have been OCing almost everywhere now. I went to leave the park about 4 p.m. (we usually don't go til about 5-6 but had things to do later) & there were 2 squad cars. I thought nothing of it & exited the park & began walking to my car.

The officer greets me & I reply with a what's up n have to immediately tell my dogs to behave. With about 160 lbs of dog looking at him as if he were lunch he politetly requested I put my animals in the car so I did. I returned & he asked me for my ID, before I reached for it I asked if I had done something wrong. He said that he had recieved a call about someone carrying a firearm openly & that they were scared. I said I was carrying a weapon (he could see it lol) & said that I was doing nothing wrong. He asked me if I had a WA CPL I told him I did but at the time I did not have the card on me because I had lost it. He politely asked for my ID again & respectfully I declined due to I had done nothing wrong. He completely agreed & asked if he would be able to search me for any other weapons. I informed him that I did not consent to any search but I would not resist if a search were forcefully done. Another officer approached behind me & asked me to lift my arms, he pulled my firearm from my holster removed the magazine & pulled the slide back. He found my Benchmade knife & that was it, reset my firearm to where it was & began to hand it back to me. I said I would e much more comfortable with having him reholster the firearm for me.

The officers said thank you for my cooperation, shook my hand & let me be on my way. It was my first real encounter with LEO about my OCing, I felt it went very good & in no way were either or them hostile towards me.
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
Another officer approached behind me & asked me to lift my arms, he pulled my firearm from my holster removed the magazine & pulled the slide back.

That's cool...if you live some country with no constitution.
 
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SpyderTattoo

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
1,015
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
So they violated your Fourth Amendment rights and illegally siezed your weapon without a warrant and without your consent. I think you need to make a formal complaint immediately.

I think you handled yourself very well though. No fault to you. Shame on those cops.
 

SigGuy23

Activist Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Freeland, WA
That's good that they did not arrest you or harass you, but they had no reason to check your firearm in the first place. Also I can't believe he violated the basic firearms safety rules and tried to hand the weapon back to you loaded. Sounds like those two need a refresher on firearms training.
 

fhsantos

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
42
Location
Spokane
From what I gathered about the complaint of the man with a firearm was that I seemed shady & I had my hand on my gun. Shady I can see, I'm no small guy, I am of darker skin, & my dogs althought nice are intimidating. As far as my hand on my weapon I informed him of my short military background, I was always taught that you should always know where your weapon is. No I don't use my hand, but I do have my forearm firmly against the gun with my hand in my pocket. It's something I have a hard time growing out of is all, if the seriousness of the threat was to where they had to check my weapon there were no real issues to me. They were both very polite about it & gave me no real hassle. If they had been more aggressive about it I would say something, but they were just another couple of guys doing their jobs.
 

.45ACPaddy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
999
Location
Lakewood, WA
From what I gathered about the complaint of the man with a firearm was that I seemed shady & I had my hand on my gun. Shady I can see, I'm no small guy, I am of darker skin, & my dogs althought nice are intimidating. As far as my hand on my weapon I informed him of my short military background, I was always taught that you should always know where your weapon is. No I don't use my hand, but I do have my forearm firmly against the gun with my hand in my pocket. It's something I have a hard time growing out of is all, if the seriousness of the threat was to where they had to check my weapon there were no real issues to me. They were both very polite about it & gave me no real hassle. If they had been more aggressive about it I would say something, but they were just another couple of guys doing their jobs.

Remember, if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile...
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
From what I gathered about the complaint of the man with a firearm was that I seemed shady & I had my hand on my gun. Shady I can see, I'm no small guy, I am of darker skin, & my dogs althought nice are intimidating. As far as my hand on my weapon I informed him of my short military background, I was always taught that you should always know where your weapon is. No I don't use my hand, but I do have my forearm firmly against the gun with my hand in my pocket. It's something I have a hard time growing out of is all, if the seriousness of the threat was to where they had to check my weapon there were no real issues to me. They were both very polite about it & gave me no real hassle. If they had been more aggressive about it I would say something, but they were just another couple of guys doing their jobs.

The officers had no RAS, no PC, you were breaking no laws, they violated your rights and you give them a pass because they were nice about it. Sorry, but I don't get that at all.
 

fetch

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
271
Location
Spokane, Wa., ,
fhsantos, you describe almost exactly what is in the SPD training bulletin on how the cops should handle an OC incident. The SPD was issued an incorrect training bulletin a few years ago and obviously it has not been updated. I should really have another chat with the police training coordinator. For now go ahead and file a complaint, at least it will be on record.
 

fhsantos

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
42
Location
Spokane
Remember, if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile...

That's a very good point, I didn't realize they had actually stepped out of their boundries that far. I will definitely report their actions, I thought what they had done was perfectly okay. I'll keep you guys updated.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Must have been the two bad apples on the force.....:D

The officers had no RAS, no PC, you were breaking no laws, they violated your rights and you give them a pass because they were nice about it. Sorry, but I don't get that at all.

I don't get it either.

So they violated your Fourth Amendment rights and illegally siezed your weapon without a warrant and without your consent. I think you need to make a formal complaint immediately.

I think you handled yourself very well though. No fault to you. Shame on those cops.

+1 And also publish their names here online. That way when others have problems with these cops violating peoples rights, their names pop up and they can search for the complaint, because "justice system" and police don't seem to have a history of being totally forthright about problem officers.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
When it comes to the 4th Amendment, your gun has the same protection as your bags, your pockets or your wallet. The only special consideration it gets is that you need a licence (in your case) to conceal it. What is the point of them taking the gun out of the holster and checking it? It's not illegal to keep it loaded-so what will they gain from opening the slide?

True, you could have incendiary rounds or something, but once again-4th Amendment. They have no reason to believe you might be carrying a gun with incendiary rounds, so there's no reason to stop you and search your weapon to find them.

Definitely file a complaint to the PD
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
fhsantos great job on your 1st LEO interaction. Yes your rights were violated and I would file a complaint. See you tomorrow morning I will buy your coffee and donuts.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
fhsantos - please don't take the replies here as critical of you personally. There were so many overtly wrong things with the detention of yourself, that they 'old hands" were appalled.

Hope you stay, learn and prosper. :D
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Overall you seem to have handled it well,
and you're learning more about exactly how bad what they did to you is,
so you're less likely to put up with it in the future.

SpyderTattoo said:
So they violated your Fourth Amendment rights and illegally siezed your weapon without a warrant and without your consent. I think you need to make a formal complaint immediately.
SovereignAxe said:
What is the point of them taking the gun out of the holster and checking it? It's not illegal to keep it loaded
gutshot said:
What was the point of the check? If they were going to just put it back, what was accomplished? What did they learn that lessened any "threat"? It seems like they just wanted to assert their authority
gutshot said:
This was an illegal stop, an illegal detainment, an illegal search and an illegal seizure.
All of that, with the bolded parts more so.

fhsantos said:
I didn't realize they had actually stepped out of their boundries that far.
...I thought what they had done was perfectly okay.
:banghead: :cuss: :mad:
Santos, I'm not trying to be mean, really I'm not, but didn't your high school civics/government class cover the Bill of Rights?
How about dinner-table conversation with your parents?
Apparently true education isn't so common any more.
Your statement there is waaaay too common an attitude among the general US population,
and is a big problem for people who think that the gov't in all its forms should follow the law, starting with the US Constitution (that would be most people on OCDO, for starters).

I'm glad you've been learning from people here, & the resources we can point you to, & I hope that you in turn educate others.
That's the worst nightmare of a controlling gov't: an educated populace.
Well, OK, the second worst nightmare.
The first would be an educated populace that cares enough to stand up to wrongdoing, esp. when those citizens are armed.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Guys,

I hate to say this, but 9/10 of this police encounter was consensual, based on the OP.

The non-consensual weapons search turned it into a detention, I believe, in my non-lawyerly opinion (you can't search a person non-consensually without also seizing their person.)

Thus, I suggest any formal written complaint should focus on the ridiculous pointlessness of the encounter. (The cop repeatedly agreed nothing wrong had been done, so there was no real point to an encounter, even a consensual one.) And, then the complaint should beat the hell out of the non-consensual search. It sounds to me like they maybe searched him for an unlicensed concealed back-up weapon, hoping for an arrest. Certainly, and this is very important, they did not search him because they thought he was dangerous and they needed to get control of the gun for officer safety.

If they thought he was dangerous and they had reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) for a detainment in the first place, they would have seized the gun at the outset. Giving the gun back immediately simply reinforces that the gun was not seized for officer safety--the only legitimate reason, when combined with genuine RAS, for a temporary weapon seizure of which I can think at the moment.

All this changes if a CPL is needed to OC in Washington state, though.

Also, just for fun, I'd try to dig up whether the scared-of-guns complainer gave his name. There is case law (law contained in court opinions) about the reliability of tips and accusations. Florida vs JL is one such case. We like the case because the court expressly said it would not make an exception for guns to standard detainment doctrine. But, the case was really about an anonymous call that a juvenile had a gun hidden under his clothes at a bus stop or some other public location. So, if the painty-wetting caller refused to identify herself, meaning it was an anonymous tip, the anonymous nature may give some additional weight or another bullet point to the complaint.

For all we know, the caller may have been a Brady supporter just trying to get a gunner in trouble. Or, maybe just trying to harass the gunner by making false accusations.
 
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Thor80

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
299
Location
Spokane County, WA
I'm in agreement with pretty much everything in this thread. Santos, I think you handled it well. I myself have never had this type of encounter in the year or so I've been OC'ing so I cannot say how I would have handled. We can all get prepped on how we will handle a LEO encounter but when the time comes, adrenaline is pumping etc. it may turn out completely different than you have practiced especially if it is your first encounter. Anyway imo the entire point of being here on this website is to further educate ourselves and as long as you take away some additional information from here then its all good and you'll have some extra ideas on how to handle it in the future should it happen again. Anyway, hope to see you in the morning!

-Thor
 

fhsantos

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
42
Location
Spokane
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Grapeshot

fhsantos - please don't take the replies here as critical of you personally. There were so many overtly wrong things with the detention of yourself, that they 'old hands" were appalled.

Hope you stay, learn and prosper.
big_grin.gif

I won't be leaving the forum, I didn't join the forum because I knew everything there was about open carry in the state of Washington. It is a learning experience, I'm not a lawyer, cop, nor a politician, I do not know the laws inside & out. I posted it on here to see if I had handled it right, so for those of you who seem to think I'm just ignorant because I don't exactly see it your way. Please realize I am still young (23 yrs), I do not know everything (my age says it all), I love my country & the things it stands for (I did serve and deployed), I'm here to learn. There's no need to e a dick about things, if you want people to understand. Pushing them around or talking down to them makes you just as bad as any other politician. I appreciate all the information, the heads up, and the suggestions. I will not be posting anyones names on here, that's just asking for trouble. Thanks everyone
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
I informed him that I did not consent to any search but I would not resist if a search were forcefully done.

I won't repeat what has been previously stated but I do agree with the comments. I would also add that the statement "I would not resist if a search were forcefully done", I believe opens the door to a consensual search or seizure, or at the least creates ambiguity of your intent. It opens the door to further potential violations. I won't hint additonal ideas.
 

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Grapeshot

fhsantos - please don't take the replies here as critical of you personally. There were so many overtly wrong things with the detention of yourself, that they 'old hands" were appalled.

Hope you stay, learn and prosper.
big_grin.gif
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by fhsantos
I won't be leaving the forum, I didn't join the forum because I knew everything there was about open carry in the state of Washington. It is a learning experience, I'm not a lawyer, cop, nor a politician, I do not know the laws inside & out. I posted it on here to see if I had handled it right, so for those of you who seem to think I'm just ignorant because I don't exactly see it your way. Please realize I am still young (23 yrs), I do not know everything (my age says it all), I love my country & the things it stands for (I did serve and deployed), I'm here to learn. There's no need to e a dick about things, if you want people to understand. Pushing them around or talking down to them makes you just as bad as any other politician. I appreciate all the information, the heads up, and the suggestions. I will not be posting anyones names on here, that's just asking for trouble. Thanks everyone

Welcome to OCDO.

It will always be your choice on how much or little you exert your rights. They are your rights, after all.

I don't think you handled things poorly. IMO, you did handle things naively, but I would not have been any different when I first started to OC.

Also, understand, many of us have experienced violations of our rights, from subtle to blatant and we refuse to tolerate such behavior in the future. Most of us will post our responses as to how we would have handled the situation. I would tend to say, as a group, we have an extreme libertarian leaning. It is still up to you to choose how you handle things in the future.

I would like to offer my opinion for your consideration in regards to posting names. I don't believe that posting those names would be asking for trouble. The officers (in my opinion) were asking for trouble the moment they decided, based on their corrupt training, to violate your rights.

Again, welcome to OCDO. Carry safe.
 
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