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Thread: Confused - 19yr old - handgun

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    Confused - 19yr old - handgun

    My 19yr old son just went to a CCW class. I am still unclear if he can own a handgun, or open carry one. I've read that he can purchase (not from shop though), own and open carry in AZ. But I have people (some married to LEO in different states, that under federal law he absolutely cannot purchase, own or open carry. Which is correct? I read a bit here and I am confused.

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    He CANNOT purchase a handgun from a Federally Licensed Firearms (FFL) dealer per FEDERAL LAW. Assuming he has no legal disabilities he is 100% legal in Arizona as an Arizona resident to make a PRIVATE purchase or receive a handgun as a gift. He is legal to carry and possess same not only in Arizona but many other states as well.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    There is no federal law that states a 18-21 year old cannot own, posses, carry, shoot or aything else. That is determined by state law. In Idaho, an 18 can even petition for a concealed license.

    The restriction is on federally licensed firearms dealers. FFLs cannot sell a handgun to a person under 21. 18-21 year olds can legally purchase from anyone, the FFL cannot legally SELL to an 18-21 year old.

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123catlady View Post
    My 19yr old son just went to a CCW class. I am still unclear if he can own a handgun, or open carry one. I've read that he can purchase (not from shop though), own and open carry in AZ. But I have people (some married to LEO in different states, that under federal law he absolutely cannot purchase, own or open carry. Which is correct? I read a bit here and I am confused.
    Here's a summary of A Citizen's Guide to Federal Firearms Laws. http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=60

    In part it initially describes "Ineligible Persons" as follows:

    "The following classes of people are ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition."

    Within that class is included:


    "Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle."

    Read that three or four times... it IS confusing. Note that the "class" of "ineligible persons" speaks to possessing, receiving, shipping or transport (no purchase); but then among those "class" of "ineligible persons" it includes "persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm..."

    I could attempt to EXPLAIN what the definition of is, is, but I won't. I hope someone more savy about what's what here will chime in and 'splain it to us all.

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    The placement of the purchase restrictions in the "ineligible persons" section appears to be a major fail.

    But, below that we find:

    Purchases
    From Dealers

    Provided that federal law and the laws of both the dealer`s and purchaser`s states and localities are complied with:

    An individual 21 years of age or older may acquire a handgun from a dealer federally licensed to sell firearms in the individual`s state of residence
    An individual 18 years of age or older may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed dealer in any state
    Now, from the authoritative source: http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf
    922(b)(1)
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed
    importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
    dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any
    individual who the licensee knows or
    has reasonable cause to believe is less
    than eighteen years of age, and, if the
    firearm or ammunition is other than a
    shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a
    shotgun or rifle, to any individual who
    the licensee knows or has reasonable
    cause to believe is less than twenty-one
    years of age;
    That does not define an "ineligible person" as the NRA reference states. It defines persons that an FFL cannot sell to.
    922(d) lists the "prohibited persons."

    I believe that the NRA site is using the "ineligible person" to define those who cannot receive a firearm from a dealer, but they sure say it in a confusing and misleading way.
    Last edited by wrightme; 09-25-2011 at 07:54 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 123catlady View Post
    My 19yr old son just went to a CCW class. I am still unclear if he can own a handgun, or open carry one. I've read that he can purchase (not from shop though), own and open carry in AZ. But I have people (some married to LEO in different states, that under federal law he absolutely cannot purchase, own or open carry. Which is correct? I read a bit here and I am confused.
    In Arizona you can carry openly under 21. The controlling statues relative to carry are in ARS 13-3102 .

    ARS 13-3102.A.2 makes it illegal for someone under 21 to carry "concealed."

    ARS 13-3102.B defines the exceptions to A.2 (for being under 21 years old)

    ARS 13-3102.B.3 defines open and vehicle carry that don't violate Section A.2.

    Nowhere in ARS 13-3102 does it show a minimum age (i.e., 18 years old) for carrying a weapon.
    That's covered in ARS 13-3111 .

    I recommend not accepting anything other than Arizona statutes or court rulings when it comes to carrynig in Arizona.
    Know-it-all gun law websites are always suspect and won't help you when you're standing in front of a judge.

    The best commerical source on gun laws in Arizona is the Arizona Gun Owners Guide

    Finally, if you want to improve the gun laws in Arizona, join AzCDL.

    Fred

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post

    I believe that the NRA site is using the "ineligible person" to define those who cannot receive a firearm from a dealer, but they sure say it in a confusing and misleading way.
    I agree... intentionally? or unintentionally? Yes, I'm paranoid... sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    I agree... intentionally? or unintentionally? Yes, I'm paranoid... sorry.
    You could always ask them.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    I agree... intentionally? or unintentionally? Yes, I'm paranoid... sorry.
    It's probably a liability issue. If the NRA says "this is our opinion" on such-and-such law, some moron will do something really stupid, claim victim status and sue the NRA.

    Fred

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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    It's probably a liability issue. If the NRA says "this is our opinion" on such-and-such law, some moron will do something really stupid, claim victim status and sue the NRA.Fred
    They can't. THe NRA placed so many disclaimers on that link that if you didn't have a note from SCOTUS, you would be laughed out of court.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azcdlfred View Post
    It's probably a liability issue. If the NRA says "this is our opinion" on such-and-such law, some moron will do something really stupid, claim victim status and sue the NRA.

    Fred
    So they put something on their website that is almost totally "confusing and misleading," as wrightme as so well put it. What "service" does that provide to its membership... confuse and mislead? Ain't that "peachy?" How about putting something on their website that accurately and without relative confusion represents what the Federal law is... understanding that it is always a matter of interpretation as to what the definition of the word "is", is.... lawyers.

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    Thumbs up Confused

    Quote Originally Posted by 123catlady View Post
    My 19yr old son just went to a CCW class. I am still unclear if he can own a handgun, or open carry one. I've read that he can purchase (not from shop though), own and open carry in AZ. But I have people (some married to LEO in different states, that under federal law he absolutely cannot purchase, own or open carry. Which is correct? I read a bit here and I am confused.
    BOTTOM LINE: As Fred said "Get the Arizona Gun Owners Guide" and "Join the ACDL" All the information and help you will ever need while in Arizona !!
    ACDL is an inexpensive and great organization for gun owners in AZ.
    Mitch

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    So they put something on their website that is almost totally "confusing and misleading," as wrightme as so well put it. What "service" does that provide to its membership... confuse and mislead? Ain't that "peachy?" How about putting something on their website that accurately and without relative confusion represents what the Federal law is... understanding that it is always a matter of interpretation as to what the definition of the word "is", is.... lawyers.
    As I mentioned before. Since you seem concerned with this, I suggest you contact them about it. Who knows, maybe YOU are the one who can help them make it more accurate. It does not hurt to try, but without trying, the outcome is certain.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    As I mentioned before. Since you seem concerned with this, I suggest you contact them about it. Who knows, maybe YOU are the one who can help them make it more accurate. It does not hurt to try, but without trying, the outcome is certain.
    Have already contacted them and am waiting for response. I did caveat my inquiry with a "disclaimer"... told 'em if I was the only one who thought what they had in print was "confusing," then they could simply ignore me.

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    BOTTOM LINE: As Fred said "Get the Arizona Gun Owners Guide" and "Join the ACDL" All the information and help you will ever need while in Arizona !!
    ACDL is an inexpensive and great organization for gun owners in AZ.
    Mitch
    Thanks for the replies. And the info above

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