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Thread: Washington OCer busted in Astoria

  1. #1
    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Washington OCer busted in Astoria

    One reason I'm paranoid to cross state lines, I can't memorize every state/city rule, so I'm just focusing on Oregon (OC with CHL).
    We really need to push for one set of laws across the US, it'll never happen, but sure would be nice.

    13 Aug 2011 - Gun at parade
    At 12:48 p.m. Saturday, at the Lektro Grand Land Parade in Astoria, an Astoria police officer seized a loaded handgun from Russell Jackson, 30, of Hoquiam, Wash., who was standing at the corner of 16th and Duane streets. Russell was carrying the gun in a holster and told the officer he thought that, with the exception of a few Oregon cities, it was legal to carry a gun in the open in Oregon. According to Astoria Deputy Chief of Police, an Astoria city ordinance forbids carrying a loaded firearm in the open without a concealed weapons permit.

    Astoria is one "of a few Oregon cities" that has a unloaded OC ordinance, sorry Russell.

    Class C Misdemeanor punishable by up to thirty (30) days confinement and/or a fine in an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00).

    I'm thinking of doing a FOIA request just to get more info and see what else happened, the little blurb in the paper doesn't say he was arrested, just that the handgun was seized.
    Doesn't he have to be arrested or at least cited for the weapon to be seized?
    Why couldn't the LEO just have him unload to be legal with a verbal warning, or would that make too much sense?

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    And the so called "National Reciprocity Bill" does nothing to change this.

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    looks like an honest mistake BUT it is your responsibility to know the laws where ever you intend on carrying. no excuse. dont gamble with your freedom
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    And the so called "National Reciprocity Bill" does nothing to change this.
    This. If he doesn't have a permit from WA to begin with, he still wouldn't be in the clear. That's why if I lived in a state that recognized the difference, I would definitely be getting my conceal permit so that I could a least be a little more in the clear if I go to another state.

    I for one would benefit from the reciprocity act because my carry permit is not recognized in the state of Oregon :|
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    I would like to see the records on this incident. Was his gun was seized before they found him without a permit or after? Also this is a good instance where not talking to police is important.

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    Last edited by Dogbait; 09-27-2011 at 01:08 AM.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    And the so called "National Reciprocity Bill" does nothing to change this.
    Actually, in a way you are correct, but in a way you are not.

    As it is today, Oregon does not recognize anyone's permit, but their own. However, If the person had a WA CPL, and HR 822 had been passed and was in effect, then the Astoria regulation would not effect him, as permit holders are exempt from those local laws.

    For those in OR, that do not know...this could not have happened in WA. The state has total premption over all local law for any carry, OC or CC, with permit, or without. (except those specifically allowed by the legislature which only concern the discharge of firearms).

    There are no special OC or CC laws in any city of WA that do not conform to RCW 9.41. If there is, like Seattle tried with their parks, they get a slap on the hand and are told by the courts their ordinance is null and void and must be repealed/removed/not enforced ec.
    Last edited by hermannr; 09-28-2011 at 12:58 AM.

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    To Whomever it may Concern:

    Oregon ONLY Reconizes Their OWN Permits!

    Washington Concealed Pistol Permits are just Plastic in Oregon!

    Oregon is an Open Carry State, however; Oregon Allows Cities and Counties to Regulate LOADED Firearms in Public Places within Their Jurisdictions, under Oregon Revised Statute 166.173(1).

    *** Oregon Defines a Firearm as LOADED if: 1 Ammunition is in The Firearm, in any Manner, OR 2 Ammunition for that Firearm is Attached to that Firearm (even if NOT Inserted or Placed into a Firing Position)! ***

    If The City/County Loaded Firearm Ban Option is Emplemented under ORS 166.173(1), then, The Prohibition CANNOT Apply to or Effect Persons who have a Concealed Handgun License, under Oregon Revised Code 166.173(2)(c).

    However, since because Oregon does NOT Reconize anybodys Permit, but Their Own, then, a Washington State Permit Holder CANNOT Claim The Defense under Oregon Revised Code 166.173(2)(c)!

    aadvark

    *** Oregon Gun Laws are a Blend Between California AND Washington, though. ***
    Last edited by aadvark; 09-28-2011 at 02:08 PM.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    ^^ But, you forgot The Fizbin Edict(*), which says it's also illegal on Tuesday...at night, even if you're carrying a trout and have a Royal Fizbin.

    [(*) The most complicated game in the known Universe, excepting, perhaps, US handgun Law.]
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 09-28-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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    ..., and Troutin' Royal Fizbin to You too, Badger Johnson...

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    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    This is why Oregon needs the preemption law. How can anyone know the gun laws of every city. Only state law apply period.
    Also you need reciplcal with all states. There is more requirements in Michigan and you don't accept mine. We accept yours.

    Please work on this. I would like to bring my gun and carry when I visit my son.
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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Oregon does have preemption, but...

    ... the state preemption allows cities (and counties) to set regulations on loaded open carry in public places & on weapon discharge.
    But those ordinances do not apply to or affect a person with a CHL.

    See ORS 166.170 through 173 link

    Check again, as far as I know, Oregon does not accept any other state's CCW/CHL, and I'm pretty sure none take ours.
    National reciprocity would be a good start to making all carry laws in all states the same so there is only one set of laws to memorize/follow.

    Side note, been busy, but hope to get in tomorrow to submit FOIA for more details on what happened.
    Last edited by Lord Sega; 10-16-2011 at 07:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    ... the state preemption allows cities (and counties) to set regulations on loaded open carry in public places & on weapon discharge.
    But those ordinances do not apply to or affect a person with a CHL.

    See ORS 166.170 through 173 link

    Check again, as far as I know, Oregon does not accept any other state's CCW/CHL, and I'm pretty sure none take ours.
    National reciprocity would be a good start to making all carry laws in all states the same so there is only one set of laws to memorize/follow.

    Side note, been busy, but hope to get in tomorrow to submit FOIA for more details on what happened.
    For the record--- UTAH recognizes ANY permit issued by ANY State or County IN THE US!
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  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sega View Post
    Check again, as far as I know, Oregon does not accept any other state's CCW/CHL, and I'm pretty sure none take ours.
    National reciprocity would be a good start to making all carry laws in all states the same so there is only one set of laws to memorize/follow.
    There are actually quite a few states that recognize Oregon's CHL: Alaska, Arizona, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont

    But you're right that Oregon recognizes no other state's license, which is silly at best.

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    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I'm fairly certain that Kentucky doesn't honor any states license if they don't in turn honor theirs. It would be somewhere in KRS 237.110 probably. However, I'm fairly certain I recall reading that they don't honor another state's license if theirs isn't honored in return.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I'm fairly certain that Kentucky doesn't honor any states license if they don't in turn honor theirs. It would be somewhere in KRS 237.110 probably. However, I'm fairly certain I recall reading that they don't honor another state's license if theirs isn't honored in return.
    And, as a state, that is a fair way to handle it.
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  16. #16
    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Ok...ok...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I surrender !

    Yes other States recognize Oregon,
    We just don't recognize any of you.

  17. #17
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I'm fairly certain that Kentucky doesn't honor any states license if they don't in turn honor theirs. It would be somewhere in KRS 237.110 probably. However, I'm fairly certain I recall reading that they don't honor another state's license if theirs isn't honored in return.
    Hmm...if that's true then this map is wrong.

    Also, I dig your avatar. Samurai Champloo FTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I'm fairly certain that Kentucky doesn't honor any states license if they don't in turn honor theirs. It would be somewhere in KRS 237.110 probably. However, I'm fairly certain I recall reading that they don't honor another state's license if theirs isn't honored in return.
    i am fairly certain that you are wrong, here is an excerpt from the kentucky state police website....


    CCDW Reciprocity

    Effective, July 15, 1998, Kentucky recognizes valid carry concealed weapons licenses issued by other states and, subject to the provisions of Kentucky law, a person holding a valid license from another state may carry a concealed deadly weapon in Kentucky.

    Written inquiries regarding recognition of Kentucky carry concealed licenses have been made to all states and U.S. territories. The map and chart below detail those responses.
    *Disclaimer~ I am not an attorney, i do not give legal advice. Any opinion stated here is in no way meant to insinuate, imply, compel or encourage that you should do anything that is illegal either knowingly or otherwise. My answers however valid may not be complete or applicable to your individual situation. I strongly recommend that you do your own research, make your own decisions and hire an attorney for legal advice ~

  19. #19
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I just finished reading the pamphlet on the #1 sticky on this forum, and now I am confused.

    Your OR OC Pamphlet says Astoria has no firearms without a CHL in "Parks" I see nothing about OC in Town????

    Edit to add Astoria 5.010: My bold.

    5.010 Carrying Loaded Firearm Unlawful.
    (A) No person shall knowingly carry a loaded firearm in a park, school ground or public building.
    (B) No person shall knowingly carry a loaded firearm on a public street or in a public place, or in a vehicle under the person's control or in which the person is an occupant.
    (C) Subsections (A) and (B) of this section shall not apply to:
    ...
    (3) Any person having a valid permit issued to the person by lawful authority to carry or use concealed firearms;

    I am not gong to test this theory, BUT, consider that Astoria does NOT require an OR CHL...only a permit issued by lawful authority....I hope the guy had a WA CPL...I can see this being a good argument.

    Yes I know full well that THE STATE of Oregon does not recognize anyone's permit but their own...but this is not State law, this is a local law.....and as everyone here knows, law is as written, not as we wish it to mean...if my argument is correct or not would be for a city court to decide.
    Last edited by hermannr; 10-29-2011 at 03:46 PM.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    The rules of this is interesting. This law was passed previous to the preemption statutes which passed in Oregon in 1995.

    For example, the state law on preemption exemptions states that cities can ban loaded carry without a CHL and a few other narrow exemptions that do not apply to the general public. For example, a security officer with a DPSST Armed Guard Card is not statutorily exempt by state law from loaded carry bans. This is why nearly every armed guard I know in Oregon has a concealed handgun license, to cover for public building and "loaded carry" bans that occur.

    The state law provides a floor for exemptions. For example, Beaverton has numerous exemptions for security officers and other activities along with the state statutory exemptions. Portland, however, only exempts armed security officers for banks. Rather than ask for a letter exemption from the Portland Police Bureau Chief, every armed security company in Portland requires the security guards to acquire a Oregon Concealed Handgun License.

    The language of the Astoria law may actually cover this guy assuming he has a Washington State Concealed Pistol License. I will be trying to find out who his attorney is and reach out with suggestions for a defense.

    This should be a lesson: Acquirement of a Concealed Handgun License in Oregon, if you are legally allowed to do so, is basically for all intents and purposes a requirement if you open carry. Both Multnomah AND Grant Counties will issue you a CHL for self defense.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Ok, finally had time to go down for more info...

    Cost of a full blown FOIA request (911 tapes, recordings/video of officer encounter, reports, etc) would have been too costly, but I did pay for the officer's incident report.
    Instead of scanning it, I'm just typing it verbatim (my notes & comments in blue):

    **********

    Incident Report: A20112292

    Summary
    I seized a firearm from Russell Jackson at the Astoria Regatta Parade.

    Mentioned
    Jackson, Russell (personal info / address I'm redacting)
    Astoria PD officer (I'm redacting name)

    Action Taken
    On 08/13/2011 at about 12:48 hrs. I was at the intersection of 16th and Duane. I looked across the street towards the Heritage Museum and saw a male subject, later identified as Russell Jackson wearing a holstered firearm. The firearm was easily seen and no effort to conceal it had been made. I contacted Russell and asked if he had a concealed weapons permit. Ok, so far so good. Astoria does have a unloaded OC ordinance (see below), so the officer has RAS for the stop.

    Russell told me he didn't. Russell told me it was "open carry", and that Oregon, with the exception of a few cities was an open carry state. Russell is correct, unfortunately Astoria is one of those cities... oops. I asked Russell if the weapon was loaded. He told me the magazine was loaded, but there was no round chambered. Personally, that's a mistake not to have one in the chamber IMO. I asked Russell to remove the weapon from the holster and hand it to me. He did so. Whoa, personally I would allow the officer to remove the weapon, but I would not touch it myself at this point, no matter how friendly the encounter is going. I ejected the magazine and could see that it was loaded with .45 rounds. I pulled the slide back and found no rounds inside the weapon.

    I explained to Russell that the City of Astoria he could not possess a firearm that was either loaded or with a loaded magazine. Yes and no, ORS 166.173 allows cities to have unloaded firearm ordinances, but ORS 166.170 preemption does not allow the Astoria "unloaded magazine" ordinance part. Russell pulled up a web site on his phone and started telling me which cities were not open carry. Mistake IMO. A website, no matter how good, can be wrong or out of date. You would have to go to the official city website (and then Russell would have seen he was in the wrong). I explained again to him that regardless of the website he was looking at, Astoria City Ordinance did not allow him to carry a firearm in the condition he was presently carrying it in. He said he wasn't going to argue the point with me. Good choice at this point. I told him I would be taking the firearm for safekeeping and he could pick it up at APD later in the day. Ok, here is where I have a question. If not arrested or cited, can Russell's handgun be legally seized?

    Upon arriving to APD a couple of hours later, I removed the bullets from the magazine and placed the firearm into an evidence locker, that I thought was for temporary storage, however I found out it was not a temporary locker after I closed the door. Oops.

    Russell arrived at APD to get his gun. I told him I had mistakenly put it into a permanent locker that I could not access. I provided him contact information for the evidence custodian and directed him to call on Monday to make an appointment. I will assume this was a honest mistake, but now instead of retrieving his handgun at the end of the parade/day and returning home to Hoquiam, WA, Russell will have to make a separate trip back to Astoria during the week (and missing work?) to get his property back.

    Statements
    See action taken

    Evidence/Property
    See property report attached
    It was a Springfield .45

    Action Recommended
    Case exceptionally cleared APD clerk I got this from said there was no documentation of this going to the DA's office.

    Not sure if the seizure is/was totally legal, but I guess the officer imposed penalty is better than Class C Misdemeanor punishable by up to thirty (30) days confinement and/or a fine in an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00), especially when Russell was in the wrong.
    But I would think if the officer was not going to arrest or cite Russell, why would he not just return the handgun after clearing it and informing Russell of the city ordinance and instructing him not to load until outside of the Astoria city limits?

    **********

    ASTORIA
    5.010 Carrying Loaded Firearm Unlawful.
    (A) No person shall knowingly carry a firearm, loaded or unloaded, in a park, school ground or public building.
    (B) No person on a public street or in a public place shall knowingly carry a firearm upon the person, or in a vehicle under the person's control or in which the person is an occupant, unless all ammunition or missile has been removed from the chamber and from the cylinder, clip or magazine.
    (C) Subsections (A) and (B) of this section shall not apply to:
    ...
    (3) Any person having a valid permit issued to the person by lawful authority to carry or use concealed firearms;

  22. #22
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Thanks Saga! Happy to hear Mr. Jackson was not charged. He may be like my neighbor (and myself for years): because of no permit required for OC he may have just never have bothered...or...it is possible he knew the law just well enough to know that a WA permit was not recognized in OR and that is why he did not produce a WA CPL???.

    As you are down there in Clatsup Co, maybe you could ask officer friendly, (the officer involved here); "because the Astoria law only requires a permit issued by a "lawful authority" and does not actually reference the OR CHL...would a WA CPL be enough to comply with their carry law?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Thanks Saga! Happy to hear Mr. Jackson was not charged. He may be like my neighbor (and myself for years): because of no permit required for OC he may have just never have bothered...or...it is possible he knew the law just well enough to know that a WA permit was not recognized in OR and that is why he did not produce a WA CPL???.

    As you are down there in Clatsup Co, maybe you could ask officer friendly, (the officer involved here); "because the Astoria law only requires a permit issued by a "lawful authority" and does not actually reference the OR CHL...would a WA CPL be enough to comply with their carry law?"
    as state law requires an oregon permit, astoria can not recognize an out of state permit.

    166.170
    State preemption

    (1) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, the authority to regulate in any matter whatsoever the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly.

    (2) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, no county, city or other municipal corporation or district may enact civil or criminal ordinances, including but not limited to zoning ordinances, to regulate, restrict or prohibit the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition. Ordinances that are contrary to this subsection are void.
    Last edited by Teddybearfrmhell; 11-15-2011 at 01:36 AM.
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  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Thanks Sega, it's great to see that the guy wasn't charged. I still don't believe simply being armed in an area where a license is required to have a loaded weapon or magazine constitutes RAS much like driving a car isn't RAS. See Delaware v. Prouse (I believe) and U.S. v. Ubiles for higher court rulings. This should be especially true given the legality of carrying an unloaded firearm without a license, and the inability of officers to detain a person to verify the loaded condition of the weapon (not counting a public building). Of course, none of that matters when you tell the officer you're carrying a loaded weapon and aren't licensed....

  25. #25
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    So if Jackson were to remain silent and not consent to any searches, could he have avoided his weapon being taken away legally? Because the officer was just responded to a MWAG call. He had no probable cause. He wanted to gain knowledge of the suspect that was not doing anything except for spending time with his family.

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