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Dayton Kroger store give lame excuse for not allowing open carry

Makarov

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
227
Location
Dayton, Ohio, USA
The Kroger store on Smithville road in Dayton seems to have an issue with open carry. My girlfriend and I have been open carrying there for over a month and on Wednesday, Sep 21, we were stopped by security and were told to cover up our weapons. After questioning the security person on whether it was securities policies or management, he failed to answer the question and got frustrated. Soon after he said, just finish your shopping.

Excuses are made very day why open carry is not wanted. I called the management the next day after this encounter. The real excuse is, they want all weapons covered so the customers won’t get excited.

What a lame excuse!
 

thebigsd

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
3,535
Location
Quarryville, PA
Do they make female customers wear burqas? Some guys get excited by women in skimpy clothes. Seriously though, that is a lame excuse.
 

r.j.s

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
15
Location
Kentucky
I'm not familiar with Ohio's laws, but what would happen if the person did not have a CCW permit?
 

Badger Johnson

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Jan 12, 2011
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USA
If you're doing nothing wrong and there's no signage and corporate follows state law there is no reason to even talk to security. They are not LEOs, can't detain or arrest.

I'd suggest you say "I'm not talking to you, go away (...or I'll call the police on you for false imprisonment or harassment)". Now, you want to be a good ambassador, but why waste your time talking to a dingbat who doesn't know the law. What is his function? Or I'd ask just that. 'Excuse me sir, but what are the terms of your employment - to question people suspected of shoplifting? If so, and I'm not doing anything illegal, go bother someone else'.

Or, learn his name. 'Hi 'Jim', nice day. Now I gotta go; walk away'. To any 'excuse me, sir, may I talk to you', answer 'No, I'm busy'.

Just like LEOs if he sucks you into discussions, he's probing, or at the minimum wasting your time. If you -can- make friends, do so, of course, with a minimum of effort.

$.02
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I'm not sure I understand the problem outside of a moment of frustration. You were not asked/told to leave, nor not to come back. Unless there is a repeat of this type of incident, don't sweat they small stuff.
 

Haz.

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
1,226
Location
I come from a land downunder.
" The real excuse is, they want all weapons covered so the customers won’t get excited.

What a lame excuse!"
.

Sure is. Ask them do your customers get excited when they see police with their weapons unovered? Would that **** security officer tell a police officer to cover his weapon so customers dont get excited? Haz.
 

Makarov

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
227
Location
Dayton, Ohio, USA
Kroger security are off duty police officers. They advice Kroger Management, so the management of the store says "cover up"! What does corp say?
 

DeLaguna

New member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1
Location
Sandusky, Ohio, United States
As I unserstand it

I'm not familiar with Ohio's laws, but what would happen if the person did not have a CCW permit?

You would want to check with your lawyer however technically as long as the Kroger is on private property and doesn't have a no firearms sign. (which most likely it is, then you can conceal carry while in the store if there is not a sign prohibiting it, if the management are ok with it.) So take video of the person telling you to cover up, and you should be fine however remember the moment you step into public property you need to make sure you are openly carrying if you don't have a CCW. So it might be a good idea to know if the parking lot is public or private property

In the case of Walmart in Sandusky, OH I called Corporate to confirm their stance. Walmart follows the laws of the state in which they are located so that means in Ohio you may open carry in call mart, but if you want to conceal carry in Walmart then you would need a CCW unless management told you otherwise. I recorded my conversation with them to be safe.

Conceal carry is always a better idea if you are able legally to do so.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I agree with everything you wrote until that last sentence. That is your opinion, and most of the posters here would hold the opposite opinion.
 

Grapeshot

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Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
You would want to check with your lawyer however technically as long as the Kroger is on private property and doesn't have a no firearms sign. (which most likely it is, then you can conceal carry while in the store if there is not a sign prohibiting it, if the management are ok with it.) So take video of the person telling you to cover up, and you should be fine however remember the moment you step into public property you need to make sure you are openly carrying if you don't have a CCW. So it might be a good idea to know if the parking lot is public or private property

In the case of Walmart in Sandusky, OH I called Corporate to confirm their stance. Walmart follows the laws of the state in which they are located so that means in Ohio you may open carry in call mart, but if you want to conceal carry in Walmart then you would need a CCW unless management told you otherwise. I recorded my conversation with them to be safe.

Conceal carry is always a better idea if you are able legally to do so.

Please cite the law that allows you to conceal with their permission w/o a permit when on their property.

Concealed carry is an option for those that have permits, but it is decidely not a better idea. You do realize that you are on the premier OC forum, right?
 

joanie

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Messages
306
Location
..
Conceal carry is always a better idea if you are able legally to do so.

I'm not so sure about that. Are guns some dirty little secret? Something we have to hide? What if dare I say it, people got used to seeing guns on the side of at least a few people every time they went to the grocery or department store, to do their laundry, or just for a walk around their neighborhood? Thats addresses the first part, now the second part. Why do we have to be leagally able to do so? Why do we need a permit for whats not only supposed to be a right outlined near the founding of our nation, but goes to personal freedom?

Far a Kroger goes, lol, I'm banned there because I was videotaping in their parking lot from inside my car as I was leaving. However, the lady working there lied to the corprate manager saying I was videotaping inside the store after repeatedly being asked not to. No one said anything to me, first I heard was from police a week later during my next visit, a week after the fact. I can imagine if I wore a gun in there, I'd probibly be accused of shooting somebody. lol, repeatedly after being asked not to.

This brings up a question for me about open carrying. What if someone who has a problem with it lies?, they might say the OCer was waiving it around in a threatining manor when it never left the holster. People have been known to lie, I've known cops to lie.
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--

This brings up a question for me about open carrying. What if someone who has a problem with it lies?, they might say the OCer was waiving it around in a threatining manor when it never left the holster. People have been known to lie, I've known cops to lie.

Yep someone could lie - guess you'd better not leave home.

Believe me you'd better have a strong case, proof that I was doing something so foolish. If not, I'm liable to make a serious dent in your retirement account and that college fund you have for your kids. I have certain protections beginning with a digital recorder which is always on, definitely would look for security cameras in the area, have a dash cam in my vehicle and other ways of keeping the facts straight.

You slander me, defame my character, attack my reputation with falsehoods and I promise you I will not roll over and play dead. Might be the beginning of the worst day of your life if you tell such lies about me. Any other questions?
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
This brings up a question for me about open carrying. What if someone who has a problem with it lies?, they might say the OCer was waiving it around in a threatining manor when it never left the holster. People have been known to lie, I've known cops to lie.

The site really should sticky this somewhere prominently along with other frequently viewed info:

Buy a voice recorder, or even better video. There are plenty on here you can advise you what to get. A recorder should be standard equipment for any armed individual.

And lest you think it only applies to open carriers:

You're worried about the lies someone might tell merely seeing you in a parking lot: what about if you're forced to shoot them? And they then survive? Or their girlfriend was in the car?
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
...This brings up a question for me about open carrying. What if someone who has a problem with it lies?, they might say the OCer was waiving it around in a threatining manor when it never left the holster. People have been known to lie, I've known cops to lie.

This is why, if you are stopped, never assume the cop does not have RAS. If someone lied, reporting you as having done something criminal, the police have no way of knowing it is a lie until they investigate. Therefore, they have RAS for an investigatory stop.

Always ask if you are free to go. If the cop says yes, go. If he does not answer, keep asking. If he still does not answer, start to slowly leave. If he stops you, the answer is no. If he does not, the answer is yes. If the answer is no, assume the stop is lawful. Follow the law for identifying yourself. Provide no other information. Repeatedly say that you do not consent to any searches or seizures. Record the whole thing.

You can fix an illegal detention later. If you fail to follow the law and the detention is lawful, now they gotcha.

BTW, having a recorder running every second that you are out and about while armed can provide an excellent defense against the lies someone might tell about you. And, if they have lied about you--and stupidly identified themselves to the cops--they can be found for criminal prosecution, and you will have a nice civil suit you can bring against them to boot!

The keys are knowing how to act during an encounter with LE and having that recorder running always.
 

color of law

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Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
This is why, if you are stopped, never assume the cop does not have RAS. If someone lied, reporting you as having done something criminal, the police have no way of knowing it is a lie until they investigate. Therefore, they have RAS for an investigatory stop.

Slow down, lets not jump the gun.

Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), held that a police officer may not legally stop and frisk anyone based solely on an anonymous tip that simply described that person's location and what he or she might look like but that did not furnish information as to any illegal conduct that the person might be planning.

The Supreme Court noted that in order to justify a detention, the officer must reasonably suspect that the individual is engaged in criminal activity. When the officer relies on an anonymous tip, this inquiry is more difficult because the anonymous informant’s information, standing alone, “seldom demonstrates the informant’s basis of knowledge or veracity.”
 

eye95

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Messages
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Slow down, lets not jump the gun.

Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), held that a police officer may not legally stop and frisk anyone based solely on an anonymous tip that simply described that person's location and what he or she might look like but that did not furnish information as to any illegal conduct that the person might be planning.

The Supreme Court noted that in order to justify a detention, the officer must reasonably suspect that the individual is engaged in criminal activity. When the officer relies on an anonymous tip, this inquiry is more difficult because the anonymous informant’s information, standing alone, “seldom demonstrates the informant’s basis of knowledge or veracity.”

I bolded the relevant part. If someone lies about what you are doing, I don't want to argue in court that I was justified in not identifying myself because *I* did not think the officer had RAS.

My point is that you cannot know if he has RAS or not.

So, how I will proceed remains unchanged. I will ask if I am free to leave. If I am not, I will NOT assume that he does not have RAS. I can fix an unlawful stop later. If I commit a crime based on my erroneous belief that he did not have RAS, I expect to be convicted and to suffer the consequences therefor.

You may advise otherwise, that is your profession. However, I would be wary of anyone asserting that an ordinary citizen, without full information, can possibly know whether or not a stop he is experiencing is lawful.
 

color of law

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I bolded the relevant part. If someone lies about what you are doing, I don't want to argue in court that I was justified in not identifying myself because *I* did not think the officer had RAS.

My point is that you cannot know if he has RAS or not.

So, how I will proceed remains unchanged. I will ask if I am free to leave. If I am not, I will NOT assume that he does not have RAS. I can fix an unlawful stop later. If I commit a crime based on my erroneous belief that he did not have RAS, I expect to be convicted and to suffer the consequences therefor.

You may advise otherwise, that is your profession. However, I would be wary of anyone asserting that an ordinary citizen, without full information, can possibly know whether or not a stop he is experiencing is lawful.
That's true if you don't ask. As we know “reasonable suspicion” is a legal standard of proof that must be based on "specific and articulable facts". All bets are off if you bump into Daniel Harless in Canton, OH.

P/S Though I have done paralegal work, I'm not an attorney.
 
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