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Training

Jim675

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,023
Location
Bellevue, Washington, USA
I have yet to see any study that shows states that require training have a lower incidence of negligent shootings than states that do not require training. If a law does no good why pass it?

There are a few hunting/cleaning/handling negligent shootings every year. Some percentage of them are by professionals in law enforcement. Training can relieve ignorance but does absolutely nothing to lack of common sense, poor risk management, distraction, chemical influences, or fatigue.

The schmuck that picks up his uncle's pistol to show his friend and blows his friend's nose off will also not be helped by his uncle's having received a government-approved training certificate.

Laws should be enforceable and effective, or they should be removed.
 

Badger Johnson

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
Until our draconian laws are reversed and the constitution is applied as it was written, we will have to put up with the laws whether we like it or not. To me training is imperative as this prevents the person covering my back from shooting me accidently or blowing out my eardrum because he discharges his weapon next to my head. Almost anyone can pull a gun and fire it but to do it safely requires training. Training can begin at an early age. Whether its a child who finds a gun laying around and not to touch it because its loaded (all guns are loaded until proven otherwise) and to bring it to an adults attention for their retrieval or an 8 year old with his first bb gun or sling shot not to shoot anything like the family pet or another child is still training. Safety is not a trait everyone has and needs to be taught or brought to their attention. Training is imperative at any age for weapons safety and you own peace of mind.

Though I like your comments, and agree that being swept, shot, eardrums blown are bad, training can not fix STUPID.

People with training still do stupid things. You have to have a brain, you have to be thoughtful and introspective. If you gave EVERYONE all the training they could handle, there would still be problems, and, imo, it's not worth it to mandate and put the gubmint in charge of it. Thanks for your thoughtful comments and for being aware that there are many sides to this issue.
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
18 year olds (or older) should be allowed to carry openly or concealed in any state with no permit necessary.
 

Trent91

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
100
Location
Muskogee, Oklahoma, United States
"No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
- Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
- Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

Excellent citations. I believe, as I have said in earlier posts, that 18 and older should be able to exercise the right, although I doubt it will happen that way. Unfortunately too much anti-OC pressure still exists.
 

gprod55

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
141
Location
Little Axe, Oklahoma
Excellent citations. I believe, as I have said in earlier posts, that 18 and older should be able to exercise the right, although I doubt it will happen that way. Unfortunately too much anti-OC pressure still exists.

I agree. So whats the answer here? How does one go about changing the perspective of the fence hangers? Those that aren't sure which side to jump on. People looking to be persuaded one way or the other. Granted you have the die hard anti's that no matter what, you will never change their minds or attitudes. They are the ones most vocal and as the sqeaky wheel gets the most grease, their objections are most heard by the public. What we need are answers and suggestions to create a better image of the open carrier. Not just for the public but also the government whether it be city, state, or federal. Using the more progressive states statitistics on open carry hasn't changed the attitudes of some of our elected officials. They listen to the anti's because they are the most vocal. I'm looking for answers and suggestions here. Anybody out there have any?
 

Trent91

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
100
Location
Muskogee, Oklahoma, United States
I agree. So whats the answer here? How does one go about changing the perspective of the fence hangers? Those that aren't sure which side to jump on. People looking to be persuaded one way or the other. Granted you have the die hard anti's that no matter what, you will never change their minds or attitudes. They are the ones most vocal and as the sqeaky wheel gets the most grease, their objections are most heard by the public. What we need are answers and suggestions to create a better image of the open carrier. Not just for the public but also the government whether it be city, state, or federal. Using the more progressive states statitistics on open carry hasn't changed the attitudes of some of our elected officials. They listen to the anti's because they are the most vocal. I'm looking for answers and suggestions here. Anybody out there have any?

Hmm.. That's a nogin scratcher. Way to reboot the discussion gprod. Well, as you said, the statistics from other states were a sharp blade once but have dulled now. The task of persuading the fence hangers may just be a matter of getting them used to the idea. Someone who imagines everyone walking around with guns on their hips like "the ole western times" may automaticaly put up their guard, stating such arguements as we've already discussed in this thread reguarding criminals OCing, novice gun handelers weilding weapons dangerously, ect.. Our job is to paint a more realistic picture for them so that they may see that OC will actually benefit the community, rather than make it a reenactment of the OK Corral. Let alone the fact that it is a RIGHT that should not have been taken from us in the first place. We just have to warm them up to the idea. Give them solid facts and statistics to chew on, and disprove their fears and arguements.
 

gprod55

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
141
Location
Little Axe, Oklahoma
Hmm.. That's a nogin scratcher. Way to reboot the discussion gprod. Well, as you said, the statistics from other states were a sharp blade once but have dulled now. The task of persuading the fence hangers may just be a matter of getting them used to the idea. Someone who imagines everyone walking around with guns on their hips like "the ole western times" may automaticaly put up their guard, stating such arguements as we've already discussed in this thread reguarding criminals OCing, novice gun handelers weilding weapons dangerously, ect.. Our job is to paint a more realistic picture for them so that they may see that OC will actually benefit the community, rather than make it a reenactment of the OK Corral. Let alone the fact that it is a RIGHT that should not have been taken from us in the first place. We just have to warm them up to the idea. Give them solid facts and statistics to chew on, and disprove their fears and arguements.

Excellent. We have someone out there that has come up with a solution. We all know the problem. Now we have a solution to work with. Thank you Trent91. Any other suggestions out there that can be added? We here in Oklahoma can take this and any other ideas we have and start working on them. No man is an island. Its going to take a group effort to change peoples minds. You can start with your neighbors, Co-workers and friends and ask them to spread the word. It can be done or we can sit on our fannies and let the world pass us by.
 

Trent91

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
100
Location
Muskogee, Oklahoma, United States
Excellent. We have someone out there that has come up with a solution. We all know the problem. Now we have a solution to work with. Thank you Trent91. Any other suggestions out there that can be added? We here in Oklahoma can take this and any other ideas we have and start working on them. No man is an island. Its going to take a group effort to change peoples minds. You can start with your neighbors, Co-workers and friends and ask them to spread the word. It can be done or we can sit on our fannies and let the world pass us by.


Amen to that gprod. Your very welcome. Glad to put in my humble 2 cents. A plan is only words without action, though!! Any one else with a thought towards the persuasion of the fence hanger? Better yet, how do we bring the anti-OCers out there to our side?
 
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Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Amen to that gprod. Your very welcome. Glad to put in my humble 2 cents. A plan is only words without action, though!! Any one else with a thought towards the persuasion of the fence hanger? Better yet, how do we bring the anti-OCers out there to our side?

Try to get in touch with the OK2A group. I know that they are planning a public education push.
 

khelben762

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
6
Location
norman
training?? ok

All the training in the world will not help the inattentive.

We are trained and tested to get a drivers license and still there are wrecks every day. (I-35 for cite lol )

While in the army my medical records were "lost" 6 times by trained personel.

Law doent affect criminals, thats why we call them that.

Police are trained with firearms and yet i remember a you tube video of one having a negligent discharge in a classroom of children. { http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJaTEdD0 }

The fact is 100% safety isnt going to happen. The human factor will see to it.

As to fence sitter, we have to educate them one or a few at a time untill the eyes of the sheep open. :banghead:
 

gprod55

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
141
Location
Little Axe, Oklahoma
All the training in the world will not help the inattentive.

We are trained and tested to get a drivers license and still there are wrecks every day. (I-35 for cite lol )

While in the army my medical records were "lost" 6 times by trained personel.

Law doent affect criminals, thats why we call them that.

Police are trained with firearms and yet i remember a you tube video of one having a negligent discharge in a classroom of children. { http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxWWJaTEdD0 }

The fact is 100% safety isnt going to happen. The human factor will see to it.

As to fence sitter, we have to educate them one or a few at a time untill the eyes of the sheep open. :banghead:

Granted. Drivers Education classes are given in high schools with parental permission. You can legally drive in most states at 15 1/2 years old with an adult in the vehicle. You can get a permanent license to drive at the age of 16. Automobiles are by far more dangerous to our youth then training them to the use of weapons. In the past weapons training was allowed in high schools thru Jr ROTC programs. We didn't have massive distruction by the teenagers who were trained in weapons back then. True back then we were allowed to use the Pledge of Alegence using the phrase "ONE NATION UNDER GOD."
Why can't we bring back programs that help train our youth in the use of,
Respect for the constitution,
Respect for ones self and others,
The rights of their fellow humans,
Firearms use and safety.
A few malcontents have pushed for taking GOD out of the equation.
The sheep have followed.
Its time to enter GOD back where he belongs or this great nation of ours will fail.
If you are an Atheist or a non believer then step outside and let the rest of us who believe continue.
Time for me to climb down off my soapbox
IN GOD WE TRUST all others pay cash.
My idea of gun control. Use 2 hands
 

MilProGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
1,210
Location
Mississippi
Why can't we bring back programs that help train our youth in the use of,

Respect for the constitution,
Respect for ones self and others,

The rights of their fellow humans,
Firearms use and safety.

A few malcontents have pushed for taking GOD out of the equation.
The sheep have followed.

Its time to enter GOD back where he belongs or this great nation of ours will fail.
If you are an Atheist or a non believer then step outside and let the rest of us who believe continue.

Time for me to climb down off my soapbox
IN GOD WE TRUST all others pay cash.

My idea of gun control. Use 2 hands

From my perspective, I'm mighty glad you took the time to step up on the proverbial "soapbox", clear your throat, and say a few things that should make any American proud!
icon14.png
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Washington state has never had a formal "training" requirement to OC or CC. Yoiu may OC without a CPL, even in the capitol buildings, or your city council. It has never been a problem.

You cannot OC or CC if under 21, UNLESS you are doing some sort of recreational activity (hunting, fishing, hiking, horseback riding ... etc, it is not restricted to just these three forms of recreation), however, if you are recreating, you can OC or CC without a permit, and can do so if under 21. RCW 9.41.060(8) says "any person engaging..."

Our current CPL license law has been in place since 1961, OC has been the same since????before WA became a state?

There is no state mandated training for OC or CC, and never has been...look at our statistics. We do not have a problem.

I absolutely agree, if you make training a "requirement" for any form of carry is no longer a "Right", and is nul and void.

Ceasefire, the Brady's and all them have stated they are targeting OC this next legislative session...be careful to guard your RIGHT to carry,,,it is coming to a legislator near you...soon...
 

gprod55

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
141
Location
Little Axe, Oklahoma
Holster retention training

Newson6.com has an excellent show on holster retention that I spoke of earlier. Also moving the holster from the outside hip right or left towards the front will prevent someone from snatching it from the rear. Being left handed I carry mine in a cross draw holster at 2 o'clock with a retention strap. Its much easier to protect that way. If someone comes up from behind you pinning your arms to your side, thus preventing you from the wrist lock, using your foot on his shin bone scraping downwards to his instep or just smashing your foot on his instep will cause so much pain that they usually let go. If for some reason you still lose your weapon carrying a concealed back up will at least give you a fighting chance. Practice this for future response. Practice makes perfect.
 

hrdware

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
740
Location
Moore, OK
Newson6.com has an excellent show on holster retention that I spoke of earlier. Also moving the holster from the outside hip right or left towards the front will prevent someone from snatching it from the rear. Being left handed I carry mine in a cross draw holster at 2 o'clock with a retention strap. Its much easier to protect that way. If someone comes up from behind you pinning your arms to your side, thus preventing you from the wrist lock, using your foot on his shin bone scraping downwards to his instep or just smashing your foot on his instep will cause so much pain that they usually let go. If for some reason you still lose your weapon carrying a concealed back up will at least give you a fighting chance. Practice this for future response. Practice makes perfect.

Link??
 
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