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Thread: Visiting Pennsylvania

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Visiting Pennsylvania

    I am from Michigan and will be carrying in Pennsylvania on my North Dakota CCW permit. I looked up some of the laws on handgunlaws.us and had a couple questions. I will be in Pittsburgh and will be in hockey rinks all weekend does anyone around there know if those rinks permit firearms or not? Also will my permit allow me to carry other "weapons" such a knifes? If so what knifes can I carry?

    EDIT: I probably will open carry. Def will not into the rinks.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 09-27-2011 at 06:21 AM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I am from VA but I will take a stab at this seeing how I travel to PA every couple of months and I OC while I am there.

    I will start by addressing the hockey rinks. In this case whether carry is permitted or not would be up to the individual owners of the rink. I am unaware of any general firearm prohibitions at sporting venues. The best thing to do would be to quietly research the enues ahead of time so there are no surprises. If you post the specific rinks here someone maybe be able to give you a specific answer.

    Pennsylvania's license to carry a concealed firearm is specific to firearms and does not cover any other weapons. I believe they view out of state licenses in te same way. You must have a permit from any state in order to OC in a vehicle.

    These two pages may be useful to you.

    http://opencarry.org/pa.html
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/pennsylvania.pdf
    Last edited by thebigsd; 09-26-2011 at 05:48 PM.
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Thanks. I forgot to ask....when am I authorized to use deadly force?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    you need a license/permit that is recognized by PA to carry concealed in PA. as far as the hockey rinks, a simple Google search will tell you, if they have their policies on their websites. licenses/permits are only for firearms.

    as far as actual defensive situations, you may use deadly force if you believe your life is in danger, if you feel someone else's life is in danger, and if you have a legal right to be where you are when the situation arises. life endangering situations can include, but are not limited to: attempted murder, attempted rape, attempted kidnaping, a deadly assault, an assault with a weapon. these are just off the top of my head. Google PA Castle Doctrine for a more thorough list.
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    [QUOTE=jahwarrior72;1618745]life endangering situations can include, but are not limited to: yada, yada, yada.

    You forgot to mention minor fender benders, disputes at the checkout counters, and all those other situations where the Brady Bunch says that blood will flow in the streets. Mustn't forget to mention the "Wild West" at least once in your description of where you can use your sidearm, right?

  6. #6
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Statkowski;1618771]
    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    life endangering situations can include, but are not limited to: yada, yada, yada.

    You forgot to mention minor fender benders, disputes at the checkout counters, and all those other situations where the Brady Bunch says that blood will flow in the streets. Mustn't forget to mention the "Wild West" at least once in your description of where you can use your sidearm, right?
    Oh for sure. In MI I can't even have my pistol in my truck in the parking lot of Walmart just because the place has a liquor license (I don't have a MI CPL). I don't know how I'll be able to handle being in a restaurant that serves alcohol. I won't be drinking but the alcohol around me could cause me to just lose it! lol And I do have a valid permit that is recognized by Pennsylvania so I'm good there.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post

    Oh for sure. In MI I can't even have my pistol in my truck in the parking lot of Walmart just because the place has a liquor license (I don't have a MI CPL).


    Got a cite for that? Most Walmarts are in shopping centers...therefore "community" parking lots.

    Not to mention the fact that Walmart doesn't "sell alcohol by the glass"....does it?
    Last edited by mrjam2jab; 09-29-2011 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Got a cite for that? Most Walmarts are in shopping centers...therefore "community" parking lots.

    Not to mention the fact that Walmart doesn't "sell alcohol by the glass"....does it?
    Whether it is sold by the glass is not the issue. Just the fact they have the liquor license means I cannot carry on their premises. Even if they don't sell alcohol.

    Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the
    Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection
    (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more
    than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    This list only really applies to people who do not have carry permits as they are exempt from this. While this list SUCKS if you are not licensed to carry a concealed pistol once you do have one you can actually open carry in places where carrying a concealed pistol is illegal. These are the CONCEALED pistol free zones and only apply when the CPL holder is carrying a CONCEALED pistol.

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquorby the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
    section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.
    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Whether it is sold by the glass is not the issue. Just the fact they have the liquor license means I cannot carry on their premises. Even if they don't sell alcohol.



    This list only really applies to people who do not have carry permits as they are exempt from this. While this list SUCKS if you are not licensed to carry a concealed pistol once you do have one you can actually open carry in places where carrying a concealed pistol is illegal. These are the CONCEALED pistol free zones and only apply when the CPL holder is carrying a CONCEALED pistol.


    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquorby the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
    section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.
    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    Parking lots not included in ban.

  10. #10
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    Parking lots not included in ban.
    That only applies to the concealed carry law. 234d provides no parking lot exemption.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    234d provides no parking lot exemption.
    234d mentions "on the premises of ... an establishment that ..." A parking lot is not on the premises of.

    Of course, this is all a moot point since the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no such hideous listing of off-limits places.

    Banks? Geez, people try to hold those places up occasionally.

    Churches or house of worship? Google "church + shooting" and see what pops up.

  12. #12
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    234d mentions "on the premises of ... an establishment that ..." A parking lot is not on the premises of.

    Of course, this is all a moot point since the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has no such hideous listing of off-limits places.

    Banks? Geez, people try to hold those places up occasionally.

    Churches or house of worship? Google "church + shooting" and see what pops up.
    In Michigan premises does include parking lots. When shall issue first passed there was no parking lot exemption it was added a year or two later to the act. Once I get a CPL OC in MI will be 1000 times easier.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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