HILLBILLYDELUXE
Regular Member
Thursday night after dinner I was doing some trouble shooting on my pickup, and took it for a road test. I stopped along the way to try some more things, pulling over near the access gate to the CAP canal. As I returned to the road I caught the eye of a sheriffs deputy, who turned and followed me. His explanation for the stop was my unlit/obstructed plate.
Some things first,
I was within 5 miles of my home, with tools on my dashboard.
I get pulled over alot, every other time I have been agreeable and chatty, offering up my firearm for the officers saftey, and almost always get away with whatever law I was in blatant violation of. This isn't about how to get out of tickets, this is about the law.
The reason for the stop, my plate, is not contested, it was unlit and obstructed.
I had an attitude with the sheriffs department due to the murder of Jose Guerena, and the hasty investigations clearing all involved.
I'll cut and paste the letter I fired off to a friend at 1am after the incident, please excuse the grammar, spelling and format, it was a long night.
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While pulling back onto the road I catch the eye of a pima county sheriff deputy, who flips around and follows me. I pull over before he catches up (no lights or sirens). I haven't been stopped by pcso since the Marine murder, and I'm not real happy about that, or being followed. My answers to the deputy are pretty short, he asked what I was doing on the side of the road (I had pulled over near the CAP canal where the shoulder is wide). I told him I was working on my truck (my multi meter, flashlight, and now brake light switch were on the dash). He asked what was wrong with it, "It's a dodge" was my reply. He got my license, reg, ins. Then asked if I had any weapons. "Yes". Started asking what, where, holstered, "I have a CCW permit, I have a revolver, under the armrest, unholstered. As he was starting to put a plan together to have me hand it over, I told him that I am not going to forfeit my firearm, but I do not mind stepping out of the vehicle. This didn't seem to upset him, he then asked me to step out. He asked me if I had any other weapons "just my pocketknife". (Which was visible, I had removed my soiled shirt to keep from staining the upholstery), He removes the knife that is clipped onto my pocket, then tells me that I need to turn around so he can pat me down.
"Excuse me, I'm not ok with that"
"Its for officer saftey"
"We can wait for backup, besides you have my gun, you have my knife"
"Please turn around"
"I do not consent to a search"
"Put your hands behind your back" I comply
"Am I being detained?" as he cuffs me
"No, this is just for my saftey, I'm not trying to be a dick"
"I asked you for your firearm, you did not comply, I have the right to secure your firearm during a traffic stop, this is for my saftey"
"Can you show me the law where you can take my firearm"
"No, you can go home and look it up" He places my pocket knife on the dash of my truck.
"Come over here and sit down" leads me to the back bumper of my truck, I comply, mostly, leaning on the tailgate.
He walks back to his car, never opening my doors.
A state trooper pulls up, converses with him and leaves.
Three deputies pull up, and converse with him, one leaves, this skinhead cop keeps staring me down, trying to intimidate me. His other buddy is doing the same. So I take turns staring each of them down. They get the message.
One maybe two more deputies show up.
While the original one is still in his car trying to find something on me, the two come over. The skinhead is flashlighting my interior, he is sure I have something. The hispanic guy is making small talk, but digging. "Whats wrong with your truck?", my relatively technical answer seems to go over his head, or he thinks I'm lying, so I stop talking.
"What's with the tires"
(I have 15 tires in the bed of my truck, which was blocking the license plate in the back window, the stated cause for the stop)
"I'm a hillbilly" and give him a stupid look.
The two of them are now flashlighting the interior and bed of my truck, furiously, but not touching anything.
The hispanic guy comes back and stands near me, skinhead still visually searching.
"He can look all he wants, he's not going to find anything, this is the first time I've been in cuffs" I'm smirking by now
"does he have a right to handcuff me?"
"he does" Then he rambles about gun rights, people have guns, most people comply with requests, etc for a good minute
"well, can you take them off now, my knife and gun are in the truck, there are 3 of you,and I'm getting bit by mosquitos"
"It's his stop" motions to the 1st officer still in his car.
Skinhead starts asking me about some bottles in my truck, passenger floorboard, in grocery bags, fresh from the store.
"Whats in these bottles"
"Soda"
"Any alcohol in them"
"No, no high fructose corn syrup either" I give more stupid looks
"Do you mind if I look at them?"
"Yes"
"You do mind?"
"Yes"
I give deputy skinhead more stupid looks. The stupid look that says I'm on the side of the road, in handcuffs, shirtless, with now 5 deputies because I have invoked my 2nd and 4th ammendment rights in regards to my firearm, a search of my person, a search of my truck, and this stupid mongloid thinks I'm going to let him touch my cream soda?
Mongo looks really confused and kinda upset. He walks up to hispanic guy,
"Can we?"
"No"
I'm 99% sure that was in regards to opening my doors, because Deputy Skinhead Mongo looked really saddend, and dissapeared into the night.
Now deputy #5 walks up, he's a beta male, seems nice. More small talk, digging.
"Is this your truck"
"Yes"
"What are you doing with the tires"
The guy seems nice, so I spill the big redneck tire smuggling conspiracy, about how I scrapped some cars, and instead of trying to sell them where I live (far from town) I left them with a friend in town, to sell for a cut, but he had a baby and doesn't have time, so I picked them up.
He seems a little disappointed and walked away.
Officer 1 comes back with my paperwork and a written warning. Un-cuffs me and tells me that the warning is for the license plate, going back and forth between obstructed, and no light, he wasn't real clear on that.
"Is my knife on the dash"
"Yes"
I set my documents in the truck. I'm thinking these guys might mess with me again tonight, so before leaving, with them all standing around, I grab my plate from the back window, get a flashlight and a screwdriver, install my plate on the bumper, get in my truck and leave.
I was handcuffed for approximately 40 minutes, and questioned by 5 deputies, because I would not surrender my firearm. I consider him taking it to his car to be "seizing" however temporary. Once at his vehicle, they almost always run the serial number. This is "searching", no way around it. It's no different than him checking to see the serial numbers on my cash, or whose name is on my underwear.
He said that it is a state law that he can secure my weapon during a traffic stop. I believe that this was introduced in the bill recognizing constitutional carry. Odd, and disturbing that a law recognizing the 2nd ammendment and the right to carry, would contain wording that tramples on my 4th ammendment rights.
Any insight on the law?
Any insight on the right to handcuff me for his saftey, after stating what weapons I had and where, and offering to separate myself from them, for his saftey.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SB1108 here
http://www.keytlaw.com/blog/2010/07/text-of-arizonas-concealed-weapon-law-sb-1108/
The law was mainly removing anything pertaining to a CCW permit from current code, but they ADDED this. ^^^
When reading the press release in the paper when this was up for law, my heart sank when I read that it allowed the officer to "secure" the weapon. But, it is very reasonable to me that my weapon would become very secure by me removing myself from the area the weapon is in. But, it turns out the actual law says "temporary custody". Not good.
This is in violation of my, our, 4th amendment rights. "temporary custody" is "seizure", and once the gun goes back to the cruiser, they will run the serial # 75% of the time (thats my experience, I've been pulled over alot). That is a search. No different than an officer taking your wallet back to his car to run the $1s and $5s through the treasurys database.
So, did the deputy have a right to "officer saftey" me in handcuffs for 40 minutes?
What to do about the law?
I look forward to your responses.
Some things first,
I was within 5 miles of my home, with tools on my dashboard.
I get pulled over alot, every other time I have been agreeable and chatty, offering up my firearm for the officers saftey, and almost always get away with whatever law I was in blatant violation of. This isn't about how to get out of tickets, this is about the law.
The reason for the stop, my plate, is not contested, it was unlit and obstructed.
I had an attitude with the sheriffs department due to the murder of Jose Guerena, and the hasty investigations clearing all involved.
I'll cut and paste the letter I fired off to a friend at 1am after the incident, please excuse the grammar, spelling and format, it was a long night.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While pulling back onto the road I catch the eye of a pima county sheriff deputy, who flips around and follows me. I pull over before he catches up (no lights or sirens). I haven't been stopped by pcso since the Marine murder, and I'm not real happy about that, or being followed. My answers to the deputy are pretty short, he asked what I was doing on the side of the road (I had pulled over near the CAP canal where the shoulder is wide). I told him I was working on my truck (my multi meter, flashlight, and now brake light switch were on the dash). He asked what was wrong with it, "It's a dodge" was my reply. He got my license, reg, ins. Then asked if I had any weapons. "Yes". Started asking what, where, holstered, "I have a CCW permit, I have a revolver, under the armrest, unholstered. As he was starting to put a plan together to have me hand it over, I told him that I am not going to forfeit my firearm, but I do not mind stepping out of the vehicle. This didn't seem to upset him, he then asked me to step out. He asked me if I had any other weapons "just my pocketknife". (Which was visible, I had removed my soiled shirt to keep from staining the upholstery), He removes the knife that is clipped onto my pocket, then tells me that I need to turn around so he can pat me down.
"Excuse me, I'm not ok with that"
"Its for officer saftey"
"We can wait for backup, besides you have my gun, you have my knife"
"Please turn around"
"I do not consent to a search"
"Put your hands behind your back" I comply
"Am I being detained?" as he cuffs me
"No, this is just for my saftey, I'm not trying to be a dick"
"I asked you for your firearm, you did not comply, I have the right to secure your firearm during a traffic stop, this is for my saftey"
"Can you show me the law where you can take my firearm"
"No, you can go home and look it up" He places my pocket knife on the dash of my truck.
"Come over here and sit down" leads me to the back bumper of my truck, I comply, mostly, leaning on the tailgate.
He walks back to his car, never opening my doors.
A state trooper pulls up, converses with him and leaves.
Three deputies pull up, and converse with him, one leaves, this skinhead cop keeps staring me down, trying to intimidate me. His other buddy is doing the same. So I take turns staring each of them down. They get the message.
One maybe two more deputies show up.
While the original one is still in his car trying to find something on me, the two come over. The skinhead is flashlighting my interior, he is sure I have something. The hispanic guy is making small talk, but digging. "Whats wrong with your truck?", my relatively technical answer seems to go over his head, or he thinks I'm lying, so I stop talking.
"What's with the tires"
(I have 15 tires in the bed of my truck, which was blocking the license plate in the back window, the stated cause for the stop)
"I'm a hillbilly" and give him a stupid look.
The two of them are now flashlighting the interior and bed of my truck, furiously, but not touching anything.
The hispanic guy comes back and stands near me, skinhead still visually searching.
"He can look all he wants, he's not going to find anything, this is the first time I've been in cuffs" I'm smirking by now
"does he have a right to handcuff me?"
"he does" Then he rambles about gun rights, people have guns, most people comply with requests, etc for a good minute
"well, can you take them off now, my knife and gun are in the truck, there are 3 of you,and I'm getting bit by mosquitos"
"It's his stop" motions to the 1st officer still in his car.
Skinhead starts asking me about some bottles in my truck, passenger floorboard, in grocery bags, fresh from the store.
"Whats in these bottles"
"Soda"
"Any alcohol in them"
"No, no high fructose corn syrup either" I give more stupid looks
"Do you mind if I look at them?"
"Yes"
"You do mind?"
"Yes"
I give deputy skinhead more stupid looks. The stupid look that says I'm on the side of the road, in handcuffs, shirtless, with now 5 deputies because I have invoked my 2nd and 4th ammendment rights in regards to my firearm, a search of my person, a search of my truck, and this stupid mongloid thinks I'm going to let him touch my cream soda?
Mongo looks really confused and kinda upset. He walks up to hispanic guy,
"Can we?"
"No"
I'm 99% sure that was in regards to opening my doors, because Deputy Skinhead Mongo looked really saddend, and dissapeared into the night.
Now deputy #5 walks up, he's a beta male, seems nice. More small talk, digging.
"Is this your truck"
"Yes"
"What are you doing with the tires"
The guy seems nice, so I spill the big redneck tire smuggling conspiracy, about how I scrapped some cars, and instead of trying to sell them where I live (far from town) I left them with a friend in town, to sell for a cut, but he had a baby and doesn't have time, so I picked them up.
He seems a little disappointed and walked away.
Officer 1 comes back with my paperwork and a written warning. Un-cuffs me and tells me that the warning is for the license plate, going back and forth between obstructed, and no light, he wasn't real clear on that.
"Is my knife on the dash"
"Yes"
I set my documents in the truck. I'm thinking these guys might mess with me again tonight, so before leaving, with them all standing around, I grab my plate from the back window, get a flashlight and a screwdriver, install my plate on the bumper, get in my truck and leave.
I was handcuffed for approximately 40 minutes, and questioned by 5 deputies, because I would not surrender my firearm. I consider him taking it to his car to be "seizing" however temporary. Once at his vehicle, they almost always run the serial number. This is "searching", no way around it. It's no different than him checking to see the serial numbers on my cash, or whose name is on my underwear.
He said that it is a state law that he can secure my weapon during a traffic stop. I believe that this was introduced in the bill recognizing constitutional carry. Odd, and disturbing that a law recognizing the 2nd ammendment and the right to carry, would contain wording that tramples on my 4th ammendment rights.
Any insight on the law?
Any insight on the right to handcuff me for his saftey, after stating what weapons I had and where, and offering to separate myself from them, for his saftey.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SB1108 here
http://www.keytlaw.com/blog/2010/07/text-of-arizonas-concealed-weapon-law-sb-1108/
J. IF A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER CONTACTS A PERSON WHO IS IN POSSESSION OF A FIREARM, THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER MAY TAKE TEMPORARY CUSTODY OF THE FIREARM FOR THE DURATION OF THAT CONTACT.
The law was mainly removing anything pertaining to a CCW permit from current code, but they ADDED this. ^^^
When reading the press release in the paper when this was up for law, my heart sank when I read that it allowed the officer to "secure" the weapon. But, it is very reasonable to me that my weapon would become very secure by me removing myself from the area the weapon is in. But, it turns out the actual law says "temporary custody". Not good.
This is in violation of my, our, 4th amendment rights. "temporary custody" is "seizure", and once the gun goes back to the cruiser, they will run the serial # 75% of the time (thats my experience, I've been pulled over alot). That is a search. No different than an officer taking your wallet back to his car to run the $1s and $5s through the treasurys database.
So, did the deputy have a right to "officer saftey" me in handcuffs for 40 minutes?
What to do about the law?
I look forward to your responses.