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Thread: Suggestions for my stubborn mother?

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Suggestions for my stubborn mother?

    I'm looking for an effective, less than lethal, method of defense for my mother who refuses to use lethal methods to defend her life because she believes she will go to hell for taking a life even in defense of her own. I realize that most here including me don't endorse LTL defense methods, but I know she won't change her mind.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Well, you could get her some pepper spray or the Kimber Pepper Blaster. You may also want to look into the various tasers on the market. Is she open to using these kind of things?

    I get that she doesn't want to take a life in order to save her own. I don't agree but I get it. That being said something to defend yourself with (even LTL) is better than nothing.

    You could also try to convince her to take some self-defense classes, it may open her eyes a little. Good luck!
    Last edited by thebigsd; 09-27-2011 at 04:50 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    That kimber looks like a good option. She is open to the Idea of rubber bullets and I know where I can get some in .40cal and 12 guage but wasn't sure as to the actual practical use of such ammo. seems a ricochet off a solid door or wall might be a problem if she missed.

    just found this
    http://www.prweb.com/releases/2009/05/prweb2465604.htm

    can be purchased here
    http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-1...ht-orange.aspx
    Last edited by Large Caliber Kick; 09-27-2011 at 05:43 PM. Reason: new info

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Large Caliber Kick View Post
    I'm looking for an effective, less than lethal, method of defense for my mother who refuses to use lethal methods to defend her life because she believes she will go to hell for taking a life even in defense of her own. I realize that most here including me don't endorse LTL defense methods, but I know she won't change her mind.
    I'd go with the taser option. As powerful as she's willing to use. She needs practice, too, just as firearms owners do.

    I've been told pepper spray is almost useless against anyone who has a lot of pepper in their diets. The police here specifically mentioned mexican peppers and thai peppers - he said people who eat a lot of them are almost immune. And though I've never used pepper spray, people who have tell me it is difficult to keep it from your own hands and eyes.

    (We visit Catawba a lot.)
    Last edited by Tess; 09-27-2011 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Noted OP's location...

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The question I want answered before I make any recommendations/suggestions is this: Is your mother willing to imflict any level of pain on an attacker, let alone cause a permanent damaging and probably disfiguring injury? (2-part question, so a 2-part answer expected)

    If mom's non-violence/pacifism extends to not actually injuring another, then she probably should not carry anything as her reluctance to use it may in fact mean it will be taken away from her and could be turned against her.

    We who carry firearms for self defense must understand that using them may result in the intentional death of another human being and in spite of that be willing to use the firearm as it was designed and intended to be used. It's not an easy question to answer when sitting at the keyboardand an even more difficult one to answer in the heat and immediacy of a self defense event. But without the mental/emotional/moral/ethical preparation ahead of time you are going to wind up even further behind the reaction curve than if you have pretty well sorted out all the internal debating points beforehand.

    So - where's mom on the whole idea of doing everything short of actually killing someone in order to defend herself?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    have you tried explaing what a violent attacker will do to her with no regard to going to hell int he first place?
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

    Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. - George Washington

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    I totally agree with Skid. If you carry a lethal weapon, you had better have everything sorted out beforehand about taking another human being's life. Every person has to recognize that and deal with it, one way or another. I don't agree with your mother's view, but I commend her for knowing her own mind and what she can and cannot do. That may change in time.

    The crux of the problem is the commandment that " Thou shalt not kill." That actually is a misinterpretation or a mistake in translation. The correct interpretation that I have been told is it actually is "Thou shalt not commit murder." Self defense is NOT considered murder, it is self defense. There actually is a passage somewhere in the Old Testament that a man is considered derelict of his duty if he does not protect himself and his loved ones.


    If you think about it, we kill all the time. We run over little living things and kill them with our vehicles, though it is not intentional. We, by proxy, if not actually, kill animals to eat, etc. Killing is part of life, always has been, and always will be. To me, murder is the wanton taking of life for no reason. Not so self defense. Every living thing, not just humans, does it's utmost to protect it's life. Self defense is part of our nature, murder generally is not, although we are all capable of it.

    Just my 2 cent musings.
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    Until one has been violently attacked or assaulted, one doesn't realize where or why self-defense is necessary.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Due to the fact that she has heard about the two people in the Charlotte, NC area who were killed by tasers she isn't willing to go that route. I've managed to talk her into a Taurus Judge loaded with rubber buckshot. The best part is, ...........she want's to OC!

    Thank you all for your input, I think it definitely helped her come to a better informed decision.

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    I would start off by asking her, where, in her book of faith, does it suggest that it's a sin to take a life in self defense. Those who believe that, are generally misinterpreting "Thou Shalt Not Murder".

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    I checked EXODUS 20 in her Bible and it reads "Thou shalt not murder." So, I don't know where she gets it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Hold on guys, the OP has not stated what flavor of religion his mom believes in. Before we can discuss this properly we need to know what religion she espouses. OP?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    It's incorrect to believe that the taking of life in defense of yourself is going to wind you up in hell. Even the Old Testament confirms this in a round about way with one of the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not kill was actually Thou shalt not do murder (or Thou shalt not murder). Big difference.

    Still, it is very hard to convince some folks otherwise. So perhaps the best possible pepper spray, or similar such product, may be her wisest choice under the circumstances.


    BTW, I am certainly not a biblical scholar but I have heard this one argued.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 09-28-2011 at 09:31 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Luke 22:36 /22:38

    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

    Luke 22:38; And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

    "Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," David writes in Psalms 144:1.

    "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him," we are told in Exodus 22:2. The next verse says, "If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

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    Regular Member GreatDaneMan's Avatar
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    I found these the other day. Rubber bullet infused with pepper. Also you can buy wax rounds. Be one hell of a bee sting.


    http://www.conceptsinammunition.com/...ucts/45cal.htm
    Last edited by GreatDaneMan; 09-28-2011 at 11:41 PM.

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    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Large Caliber Kick View Post
    I'm looking for an effective, less than lethal, method of defense for my mother who refuses to use lethal methods to defend her life because she believes she will go to hell for taking a life even in defense of her own. I realize that most here including me don't endorse LTL defense methods, but I know she won't change her mind.
    Hi L.K. Kick!

    I take it your mother is a believer in God because she believes she will go to hell for taking a life even in defense of her own. Well how would she react if I can prove to her that God said she can, no must defend her life wherever and whenever she can?

    When God instituted human government by law after Noah's flood, He gave Noah certain laws by which to govern the human race, and man was then held responsible for self-government (Gen. 9:1-7).

    There are six very important laws which God gave Noah and his decendants. These Laws were:

    (1) "Be fruitful and multply, and replenish the earth" (Gen. 9:1, 7).

    (2) "Into thine hand are they [animals] delivered" (Gen. 9:2).

    (3) "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have i given you all things" (Gen. 9:4).

    (4) "The blood thereof shall ye not eat" (Gen. 9:4).

    (5) "WHOSOEVER SHEDDETH MAN'S BLOOD, BY MAN SHALL HIS BLOOD BY SHED: for in the image of God made he him" (Gen. 9:5-6).

    And last but not least;
    (6) "I have established my covenant with you . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . FOR PERPETUAL GENERATIONS . . . the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the "EVERLASTING COVENANT" between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen. 9:8-17).

    These few laws have been the basis of all laws of God and man in every age since the flood of Noah.
    It was at this time God constituted capital punishment, and God has never revoked this particular law, "Whosoever sheddeth man's blood, BY MAN shall HIS BLOOD BE SHED (Gen. 9:5-6)." This law will continue as an eternal law, and as is revealed in (Isiah 11:4-9; 65:20-25) it will be in force even during the Millennium.

    That this law will be in force during the Millennium is plainly reaffirmed in (Rom. 13:1-6), in which the apostle Paul taught that even in this age of grace, law-enforcement officers are ordained of God, and that they are His ministers to bear "not the sword in vain" but that they are supposed to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

    It is totally necessary for human governments to punish criminals according to the crimes committed. Human governments are part of the moral government of God. That God has instituted human governments to help Him secure this end is not only clear in Gen. 9 and Rom. 13, but also in many other passages (Dan. 2:21; 4:17-25; 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:13-14).

    All administrators of human government, when they rule contrary to the law of God will be punished in due time by God for mismanagement of their authority. God never sanctions selfish and wicked administration of authority, and if such continues long it will be overthrown. Men are under obligation to obey human government when, and as long as the requirements are not inconsistent with the moral law's of God.

    Can we, should we arm ourselves against criminals who seek to kill and destroy?

    "A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring." (Proverbs 25:26).

    "Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:" (Psalms 144:1).

    Now if someone comes and breaks into your home and he is killed, then no blood shall be shed over him;

    "If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him." (Exodus 22;2).

    Get your mom a gun mate, teach her how to use it, and God will be pleased with her. She wont be going to Hell. God doesnt lie! "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" (Titus 1:2). Sleep easy good lady!

    Haz.
    When a criminal invades your home and has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.

    My Definition of Gun Control: The idea that dozens of people found dead in the Broadway Café, Tasmania, and many also seriously wounded, all while waiting for police, who were called to show up and protect them, is somehow morally superior to having several armed and therefore alive civilian's explaining to police how the attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Hold on guys, the OP has not stated what flavor of religion his mom believes in. Before we can discuss this properly we need to know what religion she espouses. OP?
    Eastern Orthodox.

    Haz, thank you for all those scripture cites. I will have her review them in the morning and I know she will read them because she's always up for biblical discussion.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

    In her closed mind all those cites were spiritual statements and the right thing to do is to talk and preach your way out of a situation. I'm doubting now that she will actually ever get any defensive tool for herself, and her pacifistic ways extent to disarming me inside the house. Since my S&W Sigma won't fit in my pocket, I'll have to add a Keltec to my collection.

    Thanks again for everyones effort, peace be with you all.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    LCK,

    It seems you have answered the question about where your mother's mind is on this subject. I'll add her to the list of folks I hope never find themselves in harm's way. Rubber bullets and pepper spray are only going to annoy someone intent on hurting her.

    I encourage you to reconsider getting a pocket handgun for carry inside your mother's house. It is disrespectful to her and to yourself. A better solution would be to either move out if you don't have your own place already, or to explain to her why you will no longer visit her at her home. Show respect for her beliefs, and ask her to show respect for yours.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    It may still help if you suggest to her this. When someone breaks in to rape kill or steal, asking God to interveen will be a waste of time during the event. It will be the same as asking God to provide food, shelter, transportation, and protection when he has already given her the very means to do so.

    Chriust told the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword. Why, why for self protection! "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36).

    If that failes, suggest to her that defending ones self will not send her to Hell, because any Scriptural mention of hell are merely "spiritual statements."

    haz.
    When a criminal invades your home and has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.

    My Definition of Gun Control: The idea that dozens of people found dead in the Broadway Café, Tasmania, and many also seriously wounded, all while waiting for police, who were called to show up and protect them, is somehow morally superior to having several armed and therefore alive civilian's explaining to police how the attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    LCK,

    It seems you have answered the question about where your mother's mind is on this subject. I'll add her to the list of folks I hope never find themselves in harm's way. Rubber bullets and pepper spray are only going to annoy someone intent on hurting her.

    I encourage you to reconsider getting a pocket handgun for carry inside your mother's house. It is disrespectful to her and to yourself. A better solution would be to either move out if you don't have your own place already, or to explain to her why you will no longer visit her at her home. Show respect for her beliefs, and ask her to show respect for yours.

    stay safe.
    Skidmark,

    I respect my mother by honoring her wishes in every way that I reasonably can. I live with my parents because I am disabled by heart complications from birth. As I am unable to hold a job I have no option to move out and due to my physical problems am unable to protect myself through any hand to hand SD methods. Since I sleep downstairs, the dog and I are the first line of defense after the door, my brother could sleep through a hurricane, and my father would lay down his life for any of us, but he has no defensive tools at his disposal because of her beliefs and fears. However, my father is not opposed to my ownership and/or carry of firearms and has told me regarding that "What Mom doesn't know won't hurt her and might save her. Go for it." Since he paid for the house, cars, clothes, food....etc, his ruling is the one I'll be going by. Mom finding out I've been carrying in the house will be a small price to pay should the unthinkable ever happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haz. View Post
    It may still help if you suggest to her this. When someone breaks in to rape kill or steal, asking God to interveen will be a waste of time during the event. It will be the same as asking God to provide food, shelter, transportation, and protection when he has already given her the very means to do so.

    Christ told the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword. Why, why for self protection! "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36).

    If that failes, suggest to her that defending ones self will not send her to Hell, because any Scriptural mention of hell are merely "spiritual statements."

    haz.
    Haz,

    The reason she gave me for her actions (or rather inactions) is that when she passes she knows she's going to rest with God. By allowing a person who might kill her to live, then she is giving that person a chance to see the error of their ways and repent from their sins. I argued the point that she would also be giving that person a chance to kill again. They could kill a total stranger to her, or they might kill her husband, her youngest son, her brother, or me. She didn't seem to care, saying it's not her job to be judge, jury, and exocutioner.
    Last edited by Large Caliber Kick; 09-29-2011 at 06:46 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
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    get her a 12 guage shotgun. then get her some beanbag rounds. done.

    or get her a handgun, and search the internet for some of those rubber bullets them fancy people make.....done lol :-)
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  23. #23
    Regular Member Haz.'s Avatar
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    I dont hink God would be pleased withyour mother?

    Hi L.C. Kick.

    "The reason she gave me for her actions (or rather inactions) is that when she passes she knows she's going to rest with God. By allowing a person who might kill her to live, then she is giving that person a chance to see the error of their ways and repent from their sins. I argued the point that she would also be giving that person a chance to kill again. They could kill a total stranger to her, or they might kill her husband, her youngest son, her brother, or me. She didn't seem to care, saying it's not her job to be judge, jury, and exocutioner."
    .

    You did well mate. With deep respect for your mother and her own discisions, between you and me, she is actually disobeying God. God says not to fall before the wicked. God says arm your self, defend yourself, etc. God will also have angels immediately put down any criminal or rebellion during the milennial rule of Christ; "Whosoever sheddeth man's blood, BY MAN shall HIS BLOOD BE SHED (Gen. 9:5-6)." This law will continue as an eternal law, and as is revealed in (Isiah 11:4-9; 65:20-25) it will be in force even during the Millennium."
    I provided the Scriptures. I pray this will never happen but, Ibelieve if your mother was killed by a criminal and was able to but failed to defend her life, God would not be pleased. She has decided to do lsee than God has revealed. She has decided that she knows better than God Himself. Cheers my friend, Haz.
    When a criminal invades your home and has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.

    My Definition of Gun Control: The idea that dozens of people found dead in the Broadway Café, Tasmania, and many also seriously wounded, all while waiting for police, who were called to show up and protect them, is somehow morally superior to having several armed and therefore alive civilian's explaining to police how the attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

  24. #24
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    I also keep thinking about the discourse in Sgt. York when he wanted to be a moral objector to being drafted into the war and forced to kill. When he came back from his sojourn on the mountain and signed up ... it was a very powerful and moving searching for God's purpose in sending him into war.

    Either way, if your mother will not defend herself with deadly force, I hope and pray that you are there to do it for her. You are a wonderful son in that you are ready and willing to bear that burden for her if it ever becomes necessary. Continue to love and honor your mother.

    Perhaps you can get some of those household items (clock cases, books, etc) that will hold a hidden gun and place them around the house where you can stash some weapons for easy access. You would probably not want a gun in them until you are sure your mother isn't going to accidently find it
    cheers - okboomer
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