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Thread: Washington Cease Fire Event 10/9 Greenlake

  1. #1
    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    Washington Cease Fire Event 10/9 Greenlake

    I just noticed that Washington Cease Fire is holding an event. Anyone interested in holding our own non-event in the same proximity?

    "Our annual Day of Remembrance event at 10:30 A.M. Sunday, October 9, at Green Lake Park, Seattle."
    http://www.washingtonceasefire.org/events

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    My Opinion...

    No. They are an irrelevant group, with only 5000 members across the state. There are more than 340,000 citizens with a CPL. I do not wish to give them any attention or any credibility.

    A pro-gun Internet community focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.
    Frankly protesting/counter-protesting them only brings attention to them and is not part of my daily life.
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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    No. They are an irrelevant group, with only 5000 members across the state. There are more than 340,000 citizens with a CPL. I do not wish to give them any attention or any credibility.



    Frankly protesting/counter-protesting them only brings attention to them and is not part of my daily life.
    This may be true, but....they apparently have a stated 2012 legislative intiative that we should at a minimum pay attention to:

    Legislative Goals

    " Washington CeaseFire believes there are several laws that should be passed to reduce gun violence in Washington State. Those states that have the most restrictive gun legislation have just one-sixth the level of gun violence versus those states with the least restrictive laws, according to the book, “Private Gun, Public Health,” by Dr. David Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health. Other states have: closed the gun-show loophole; banned the sale of military-style assault weapons; limited handgun sales to one per month; carefully regulated concealed weapon permits, and banned open carrying of guns. None of those policies apply in Washington state, which ranks among the most loosely regulated states in terms of guns. Washington CeaseFire believe those policies should be adopted to save lives in Washington state.

    Our legislative priority for the 2012 state legislative session is to prohibit the unconcealed, open carrying of loaded weapons.

    It is legal in this state to carry a loaded weapon in full view without a permit, even in government buildings such as the state Capitol – and into legislative hearing rooms during a public hearing.

    Open carrying of loaded guns was prohibited in Dodge City during the days of the Wild West and is currently prohibited in such gun-friendly states as Texas, Oklahoma and Florida."


    Although they will have a seemingly tough time to make the case that this meshes in any way with the stated goal to reduce gun "violence" it is clear they have us in their sites (as it were).
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    This may be true, but....they apparently have a stated 2012 legislative intiative that we should at a minimum pay attention to:

    Legislative Goals

    " Washington CeaseFire believes there are several laws that should be passed to reduce gun violence in Washington State. Those states that have the most restrictive gun legislation have just one-sixth the level of gun violence versus those states with the least restrictive laws, according to the book, “Private Gun, Public Health,” by Dr. David Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health. Other states have: closed the gun-show loophole; banned the sale of military-style assault weapons; limited handgun sales to one per month; carefully regulated concealed weapon permits, and banned open carrying of guns. None of those policies apply in Washington state, which ranks among the most loosely regulated states in terms of guns. Washington CeaseFire believe those policies should be adopted to save lives in Washington state.

    Our legislative priority for the 2012 state legislative session is to prohibit the unconcealed, open carrying of loaded weapons.

    It is legal in this state to carry a loaded weapon in full view without a permit, even in government buildings such as the state Capitol – and into legislative hearing rooms during a public hearing.

    Open carrying of loaded guns was prohibited in Dodge City during the days of the Wild West and is currently prohibited in such gun-friendly states as Texas, Oklahoma and Florida."


    Although they will have a seemingly tough time to make the case that this meshes in any way with the stated goal to reduce gun "violence" it is clear they have us in their sites (as it were).
    Way not cool!
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    "Our legislative priority for the 2012 state legislative session is to prohibit the unconcealed, open carrying of loaded weapons."
    Correct me if I am wrong here, but there would have to be a change in our Washington State Constitution

    Art.1 Sec 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

    Not to say anyone should turn a blind eye to it, though we need to keep having positive events and contacts.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    As Gogo, DEROS and I discussed the other day, the anti-gunners in this state are irrelevant. Washington Ceasefire has only 5,000 members statewide. There are over 340,000 active CPL holders. That number still doesn't include gun owners who don't have a CPL. I don't think we need to worry about Washington Ceasefire.

    That being said, it's alwats smart to pay attention to what's happening in Olympia and DC. That pretty much goes without saying.

    Ralph Fascitelli evidently hasn't realized that WA isn't CA. There's a whole different mindset here. With very few exceptions, I believe that any politician who supported anti-gun legislation would find themselves voted out of office come the next election
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post

    Ralph Fascitelli evidently hasn't realized that WA isn't CA. There's a whole different mindset here. With very few exceptions, I believe that any politician who supported anti-gun legislation would find themselves voted out of office come the next election
    All good points, however, the one thing that WA Ceasfire may be counting on is the general apathy many seem to have. Yes, they own guns, carry guns, but don't really pay much attention to what's happening in Olympia.

    Organizations like Ceasefire may be small in number and viewed as irrelevant by many but one thing worthy of note is that they always seem to get the ear of the Politicians. One or two effective lobbyists can be more of a force than 300-400 thousand disorganized gun owners.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    This may be true, but....they apparently have a stated 2012 legislative intiative that we should at a minimum pay attention to:

    Legislative Goals

    " Washington CeaseFire believes there are several laws that should be passed to reduce gun violence in Washington State. Those states that have the most restrictive gun legislation have just one-sixth the level of gun violence versus those states with the least restrictive laws, according to the book, “Private Gun, Public Health,” by Dr. David Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health. Other states have: closed the gun-show loophole; banned the sale of military-style assault weapons; limited handgun sales to one per month; carefully regulated concealed weapon permits, and banned open carrying of guns. None of those policies apply in Washington state, which ranks among the most loosely regulated states in terms of guns. Washington CeaseFire believe those policies should be adopted to save lives in Washington state.

    Our legislative priority for the 2012 state legislative session is to prohibit the unconcealed, open carrying of loaded weapons.

    It is legal in this state to carry a loaded weapon in full view without a permit, even in government buildings such as the state Capitol – and into legislative hearing rooms during a public hearing.

    Open carrying of loaded guns was prohibited in Dodge City during the days of the Wild West and is currently prohibited in such gun-friendly states as Texas, Oklahoma and Florida."


    Although they will have a seemingly tough time to make the case that this meshes in any way with the stated goal to reduce gun "violence" it is clear they have us in their sites (as it were).
    This is where SAF, NRA, GOA etc should be stepping in with a counter statement. What we need is a state organization to handle the state stuff.

  9. #9
    Activist Member SigGuy23's Avatar
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    " Washington CeaseFire believes there are several laws that should be passed to reduce gun violence in Washington State. Those states that have the most restrictive gun legislation have just one-sixth the level of gun violence versus those states with the least restrictive laws, according to the book, “Private Gun, Public Health,” by Dr. David Hemenway of the Harvard School of Public Health. Other states have: closed the gun-show loophole; banned the sale of military-style assault weapons; limited handgun sales to one per month; carefully regulated concealed weapon permits, and banned open carrying of guns. None of those policies apply in Washington state, which ranks among the most loosely regulated states in terms of guns. Washington CeaseFire believe those policies should be adopted to save lives in Washington state.
    Really? They call these facts. Where the hell do they get their information? Two of the states with the strictest gun laws have the highest crime rate in the country. Illinois and California. LA and Chicago are the worst. Our crime rate is nothing compared to those states.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    They may be few...

    "Power is always gradually stealing away from the many to the few, because the few are more vigilant and consistent; it still contracts to a smaller number, till in time it centers in a single person.
    "Thus all the forms of governments instituted among mankind, perpetually tend towards monarchy; and power, however diffused through the whole community, is by negligence or corruption, commotion or distress, reposed at last in the chief magistrate."
    Samuel Johnson: Adventurer #45 (March 27, 1753)

    We cannot vacate the public forum to these fools. To do so allows them an unchecked voice over the affairs of us all.

    Counter protest? Eh.

    Making absolutely clear to our representatives in our government that they will be answering to us should they fail to protect those Rights we hold so dear? You bet.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    "I aim to misbehave..." Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    All good points, however, the one thing that WA Ceasfire may be counting on is the general apathy many seem to have. Yes, they own guns, carry guns, but don't really pay much attention to what's happening in Olympia.

    Organizations like Ceasefire may be small in number and viewed as irrelevant by many but one thing worthy of note is that they always seem to get the ear of the Politicians. One or two effective lobbyists can be more of a force than 300-400 thousand disorganized gun owners.

    In addition, they have the willing, sympathetic ear of the media at large who can turn a story around. Remember the meet and greet at the Federal Way when they asked Ruby about what happened at Forzas?? Like if the two were ever connected....

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    Regular Member jsanchez's Avatar
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    Are they remembering all the people who died of gun violence or just their leader tom wesley the federal prosicuitor, there was an article in the seattle times today about his 10 year annversery of his murder on 11 of october. I agree with GOGO, DEROS, and Bookman, I'm not going up there and I'm walking somewhere else than Greenlake to not give these miss guided people any standing. I hope it rains really hard.
    Last edited by jsanchez; 09-30-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    This is where SAF, NRA, GOA etc should be stepping in with a counter statement. What we need is a state organization to handle the state stuff.
    +1 - This is still the nut of the problem and the apathy or generally dis-organization of OC's. To me it is somewhat pointless to include the strength of the 350,000 CPL holders as a group to take a stand to the stated goal of making open carry illegal. I have been told recently by politicians that "no rights are absolute"....and the CPL holders (or a percentage of them) may not have any skin in the game if they are not of the few OC supporters as well. The issue of a "state organization" (for OC and other issues) was polled in the past and had mixed reviews to organization and value. Usually, in the absence of need (program, social, training, support), it is an organized attack such as this that may be a catalyst to generate enough interest to mount a defense. Expecting other organizations to pick this up and run, or getting attny's to defend foks for free when they get in a jam, settling out of court for officer "retraining", in the end just isn't going to get it done.....especially if they are able to raise a significant amount of the funding in the auction that will be dedicated to a legislative intiative. There are lots of laws on the books that don't pass constitutional muster, but were passed anyway in expectation that a legal challenge would be needed and not met. If we are going to do something more than showing up for coffee, then we need to be the standard bearers and have the willingness to push back.

    It starts like this: http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professio...macy/NPLEx.htm

    with legislation passed in 2010...and ends up with a photo ID instant tracking database that reports real time purchases to the WSP while people weren't looking.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    +1 - This is still the nut of the problem and the apathy or generally dis-organization of OC's. To me it is somewhat pointless to include the strength of the 350,000 CPL holders as a group to take a stand to the stated goal of making open carry illegal. I have been told recently by politicians that "no rights are absolute"....and the CPL holders (or a percentage of them) may not have any skin in the game if they are not of the few OC supporters as well. The issue of a "state organization" (for OC and other issues) was polled in the past and had mixed reviews to organization and value. Usually, in the absence of need (program, social, training, support), it is an organized attack such as this that may be a catalyst to generate enough interest to mount a defense. Expecting other organizations to pick this up and run, or getting attny's to defend foks for free when they get in a jam, settling out of court for officer "retraining", in the end just isn't going to get it done.....especially if they are able to raise a significant amount of the funding in the auction that will be dedicated to a legislative intiative. There are lots of laws on the books that don't pass constitutional muster, but were passed anyway in expectation that a legal challenge would be needed and not met. If we are going to do something more than showing up for coffee, then we need to be the standard bearers and have the willingness to push back.

    It starts like this: http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professio...macy/NPLEx.htm

    with legislation passed in 2010...and ends up with a photo ID instant tracking database that reports real time purchases to the WSP while people weren't looking.
    This started a while back with Actifed disappearing behind the counter, and having to sign for it when you did ask for and purchase it. Now they are adding Sudifed, Benidryl, and all of the others and want instant access to see if you purchased some in another store too. Stupid waste of publicfunds.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Let's not forget that there's a sticky for cleaning up the freeway in Fife scheduled for the same day. Let's rub it in their faces by getting better publicity than them, by doing good.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Let's not forget that there's a sticky for cleaning up the freeway in Fife scheduled for the same day. Let's rub it in their faces by getting better publicity than them, by doing good.
    I like this idea....I'm planning on being there, but haven't heard much more about the organizing...

    Who has the cool placards to put on the side of the road...

    Who has the contact to get it up on the reader board

    Who has the contact to the news to make it heard....

    Who organized this last time?........I'm just a worker bee on this mission.

    Who else is planning on coming?...it would be a poor showing with only three of us.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Well, I think M1 has all the stuff related to the work. (or at least access) Deros could possibly call his contacts in the media. I suppose Dave Workman would probably also write about it in his column. Anything else?
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    To me it is somewhat pointless to include the strength of the 350,000 CPL holders as a group to take a stand to the stated goal of making open carry illegal.
    Especially since many of those CPL holders think OC is foolish. Had that discussion at the range Wednesday with a fellow shooter. CPL holder, NRA member, gun rights supporter all the way (his words) yet he feels OC makes too many people nervous and wouldn't loose any sleep if it was declared illegal.

    It may not be productive to refer to the 350,000 CPL holders that much in an OC campaign. Lets face it, they did get their permit so they could carry Concealed and not just to cover their OC while in a vehicle.

    The "Gun Culture" is divided on several issues. These divides actually give the "anti" plenty of ammunition.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    It may not be productive to refer to the 350,000 CPL holders...
    That's my take.


    The number is often irrelevant, and, dangerous to assume safety is in numbers. What becomes relevant is the organization with a few people having connections, money and allies in a legislature. We can no longer hold faith in overall numbers as the dominating voice, haven’t for a long time. After all what was the U.S. population when a few; a minuet percentage went against the vast majority and passed Obama Care, or the other liberal/socialist laws we seeing popping up all over the country. A connected and funded social movement will always find ways in which to bypass the numbers. We cannot always assume numbers are the saving grace when social change and politics are married!

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    In my opinion, it is both foolish and dangerous to ignore Washington Ceasefire or any other anti gun group that is both organized and vocal. We do so at our own peril. Please see the first line in my signature. Also, please remember that in the American War for Independence, it was a minority of the population that believed in that war and fought in it and won. OCers also are a minority of the gun owners in this state. I agree with those who say we cannot count on numbers any more.

    I see RCW 270 as part of the problem also; there is too much open to intepretation. We have NO LAW that states that OC is legal, only what is illegal. The antis will definitely interpret it to their viewpoint. Who defines what "manifests an intent to intimidate another" or what "warrants alarm for the safety of other persons?" We've already had a couple of cases along these lines that did not turn out very well or with a clear verdict of no wrong doing. At least that I am aware of; please correct me if I am wrong. The people who wrote this RCW certainly gave themselves (and the state) lots of wiggle room.

    Add to this the fact that we reside in an area of the state that is socialist (or seems to be, at least to me) and already anti-gun or apathetic, as was already mentioned. An awful lot of people are mainly interested in surviving financially and could care less about gun rights right now. I'm talking about people who are on the fence about it, not us.

    Let's not assume we have nothing to worry about because it's in our Constitution, both federal and state. Yes, we have the 2A but that doesn't mean that they can't regulate where, when, & how. Cali just lost open carry, UNLOADED open carry! I find that incredible!! AFAIK, there has never been a document yet written that can't be changed. How many amendments does our own Constitution have??? It just takes the "right" combination of politics, money, timing, and determination. The antis have a plan, an agenda. We apparently don't!! What are we going to do about it?!? I do not favor going to Greenlake to counter protest, that would be seen as giving weight to their demonstration. But I think we have to take these people and others like them seriously. They are serious, they are organized, and they are well funded from the federal level on down. Yes, we have national organizations like SAF, NRA, etc and they have helped locally, as with the Seattle parks gun ban. But I believe jt59 is correct, we need to do more than meet for coffee. I am not able to because of lack of transportation and my work schedule, but I do support those who can get together to start planning a defense strategy.

    I apologize for making this so long, but it was important for me to touch on these points. It is important that we dialogue about this both here and in person. We cannot afford to sit on our hands and do nothing.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Nobody said to ignore Washington Ceasefire or any other anti-gun group. What was said is not to worry about them. We just need to keep an eye out and counter any moves they try to make. Use the AWB a couple years ago as an example. Over 300 people showed up in Olympia for that hearing. Only about a dozen or so supported the bill. Once that was seen it never made it out of committee.

    Like the old saying goes, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". That's why vocal minorities often get things their own way. They annoy people into capitulation. It's up to us to make sure that doesn't happen.

    That being said, Washington Ceasefire's memorial service at Greenlake wasn't exactly big on my things-to-worry-about list.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    I beg your pardon, Bookman. Gogo said in his first post on this thread that they were irrelevant and not to give them any attention or credibility. I was just disagreeing with that.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    I see RCW 270 as part of the problem also; there is too much open to intepretation. We have NO LAW that states that OC is legal, only what is illegal. The antis will definitely interpret it to their viewpoint. Who defines what "manifests an intent to intimidate another" or what "warrants alarm for the safety of other persons?" We've already had a couple of cases along these lines that did not turn out very well or with a clear verdict of no wrong doing. At least that I am aware of; please correct me if I am wrong. The people who wrote this RCW certainly gave themselves (and the state) lots of wiggle room.
    That fact, that we don't have any laws affirming the right to open carry is, in essence, the basis of our entire legal system. Constitutions apply limits to governments, which then pass laws within the framework of limited authority granted by the Constitution. ANYTHING that is not explicitly forbidden is allowed under our system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Let's not assume we have nothing to worry about because it's in our Constitution, both federal and state. Yes, we have the 2A but that doesn't mean that they can't regulate where, when, & how. Cali just lost open carry, UNLOADED open carry!
    The Constitution of the state of California does not guarantee any right to firearm ownership of any kind, nor does it restrict the government in any way with regards to keeping or bearing arms, save only the fact that the state Constitution is subordinate to the federal one; And given how the militia clause of the federal one fails to explain who is in the militia, there will always be claims by hoplophobes that it isn't an individual right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    I find that incredible!! AFAIK, there has never been a document yet written that can't be changed. How many amendments does our own Constitution have??? It just takes the "right" combination of politics, money, timing, and determination.
    Actually, if you read the entire Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments cannot be repealed or modified to be more restrictive. Of course, if nobody broke laws, we wouldn't need police. All the laws we need to ensure our freedom are already on the books, if we could just get them enforced.

  24. #24
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice the news coverage on TV? I caught a brief moment of it and it appeared that they had about 10 people or so. The cameraman had to maneuver a bit to get their "crowd" to fill about 2/3 of the picture

    Apparently WA Ceasefire is a "Jobs Program" for Ralph Fascitelli. Wonder if he could hold down a real job?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  25. #25
    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Did anyone notice the news coverage on TV? I caught a brief moment of it and it appeared that they had about 10 people or so. The cameraman had to maneuver a bit to get their "crowd" to fill about 2/3 of the picture

    Apparently WA Ceasefire is a "Jobs Program" for Ralph Fascitelli. Wonder if he could hold down a real job?
    You are mistaken. There were 20. 10 of them were new crew(camera, reporter, sound guys). The other 10 we actual WCF supporters and in order for them to attend they had to plant bulbs at the park.

    They count that as 30. 10 for the rally, 10 planting bulbs(same 10 people) and 10 people from news crews. That sir is almost 100 which is probably what they claimed in their after action review.

    <Sarcasim>
    Last edited by badkarma; 10-12-2011 at 02:52 PM.

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