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Thread: Open carry in the Detroit Casino's

  1. #1
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    Open carry in the Detroit Casino's

    I don't ever remember this being discussed; however, it does not appear that the carrying of firearms can be completely prohibited at the Detroit casino's.

    28.425o states...

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    and we all know that 750.234d exempt permit holders.

    It appears that the Michigan administrative code can prohibit only concealed carry, but they can't prohibit open carry.

    I would also think that since the three casino's are city owned, they are not private property, so they can't restrict possession.

    Any thoughts.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    I don't ever remember this being discussed; however, it does not appear that the carrying of firearms can be completely prohibited at the Detroit casino's.

    28.425o states...

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    and we all know that 750.234d exempt permit holders.

    It appears that the Michigan administrative code can prohibit only concealed carry, but they can't prohibit open carry.

    I would also think that since the three casino's are city owned, they are not private property, so they can't restrict possession.

    Any thoughts.
    Interesting.........but it is my understanding the casino's are privately owned.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

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    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Interesting.........but it is my understanding the casino's are privately owned.
    Why not link to the thread you wrote with all the details?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ghlight=casino
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    Take a look at the statute it is referring to below. It bans any type of carry except for LEOs and Armored Car personnel.

    432.1212 Weapons in casino.
    Rule 212. (1) An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a casino, except for the following entities:
    (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers, as defined in section 2(e) of Act No. 203 of the Public Acts of 1965, as amended, being § 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. § 8331.
    (c) Armored car personnel picking up or delivering currency at secured areas.
    (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official duties within a casino shall, to the extent practicable, advise the Michigan state police gaming section of their presence.
    (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty in a casino.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    Take a look at the statute it is referring to below. It bans any type of carry except for LEOs and Armored Car personnel.

    432.1212 Weapons in casino.
    Rule 212. (1) An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a casino, except for the following entities:
    (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers, as defined in section 2(e) of Act No. 203 of the Public Acts of 1965, as amended, being § 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. § 8331.
    (c) Armored car personnel picking up or delivering currency at secured areas.
    (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official duties within a casino shall, to the extent practicable, advise the Michigan state police gaming section of their presence.
    (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty in a casino.”

    True; however, 28.425o says you may not carry a concealed pistol in violation of these rules. It appears that these rules are only enforceable for concealed carry. I don't think these rules would apply for an unconcealed pistol.

    Still not 100% sure what to make of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    True; however, 28.425o says you may not carry a concealed pistol in violation of these rules. It appears that these rules are only enforceable for concealed carry. I don't think these rules would apply for an unconcealed pistol.

    Still not 100% sure what to make of this.
    In my opinion this means that you cannot carry concealed in violation of 432.1212. Some LEOs and private investigators have CPLs that are EXEMPT from carry restrictions….aka Pistol Free Zones. I take this as to mean their CPL is NOT exempt from Casinos. 432.1212 doesn't mention concealed carry, it simply states the carrying of a firearm so I think this would trump any other statute unless there was another that specifically said certain persons were except from carrying a firearm on these types of premises. I don’t know of any other statute that says a person licensed by the state is exempt from statutes pertaining to Casinos. Other statutes on the books either state concealed carry, which doesn’t prohibit open carry, or cover possession itself without a CPL.

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    I'm going to go ahead and say its one of those MCLs that talks in a circle and a prosecutor will get you for it. kind of like the MSP legal update 86 which states "a pistol is concealed even if it is partially concealed" but also states a pistol is considered open carry if "it can be recognized by the casual observer" So its saying you cant use an IWB holster but also saying you can use an IWB holster. love those gray areas...

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    True; however, 28.425o says you may not carry a concealed pistol in violation of these rules.
    True but R 432.1212 states you may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a casino. So if you carried openly you wouldn't be in violation of MCL 28.425o but you would still be in violation of R 432.1212.

    Bronson
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    True but R 432.1212 states you may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a casino. So if you carried openly you wouldn't be in violation of MCL 28.425o but you would still be in violation of R 432.1212.

    Bronson
    This is true. But, laws such as this have been deemed "unconstitutional" under the equal protection clause elsewhere, just not here. I think it was the 9th District Federal Appeals Court that said gun laws that exempt retired LEOs or off- duty reserves are unconstitutional under the "equal protection clause" because they treat people in similar circumstances differently. They did say that laws that exempt on-duty LEOs are OK, as they actually have a job-related need. I'll post the relevant citation when I can use my computer rather than my phone.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    ...the 9th District Federal Appeals Court that said gun laws that exempt retired LEOs or off- duty reserves are unconstitutional under the "equal protection clause" because they treat people in similar circumstances differently.
    I guess I don't follow you. I don't see where R 432.1212 exempts either retired LEOs or reserves. It may exempt off duty LEOs.

    Rule 212. (1) An individual may not carry a firearm or other weapon in a casino, except for the following entities:

    (a) State, county, city, township, or village law enforcement officers, as
    defined in section 2(e) of Act No. 203 of the Public Acts of 1965, as amended, being § 28.601 et seq. of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (b) Federal law enforcement officers, as defined in 5 U.S.C. § 8331.


    (c) Armored car personnel picking up or delivering currency at secured
    areas.

    (2) Law enforcement officers conducting official duties within a casino
    shall, to the extent practicable, advise the Michigan state police gaming section of their presence.

    (3) Private casino security personnel may carry handcuffs while on duty in a casino.


    28.602

    (l) "Police officer" or "law enforcement officer" means, unless the context requires otherwise, any of the following:

    (i) A regularly employed member of a law enforcement agency authorized and established pursuant to law, including common law, who is responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the general criminal laws of this state. Police officer or law enforcement officer does not include a person serving solely because he or she occupies any other office or position.

    (ii) A law enforcement officer of a Michigan Indian tribal police force, subject to the limitations set forth in section 9(3).

    (iii) The sergeant at arms or any assistant sergeant at arms of either house of the legislature who is commissioned as a police officer by that respective house of the legislature as provided by the legislative sergeant at arms police powers act, 2001 PA 185, MCL 4.381 to 4.382.

    (iv) A law enforcement officer of a multicounty metropolitan district, subject to the limitations of section 9(7).

    (v) A county prosecuting attorney's investigator sworn and fully empowered by the sheriff of that county.

    (vi) Until December 31, 2007, a law enforcement officer of a school district in this state that has a membership of at least 20,000 pupils and that includes in its territory a city with a population of at least 180,000 as of the most recent federal decennial census.

    (vii) A fire arson investigator from a fire department within a city with a population of not less than 750,000 who is sworn and fully empowered by the city chief of police.
    Bronson

    Last edited by Bronson; 10-02-2011 at 04:01 AM.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I guess I don't follow you. I don't see where R 432.1212 exempts either retired LEOs or reserves. It may exempt off duty LEOs.



    28.602



    Bronson

    My error Bronson. I was referring to the general exemption to the 28.425o Zones as found in that section regarding CPLs, but I posted it in a response to a post specifically regarding R 432.1212. You are correct that even those individuals exempt from the areas listed under 28.425o would still be violating R 432.1212.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Ok. I thought I had missed some key piece of info

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Ok. I thought I had missed some key piece of info

    Bronson
    No, I made the mistake of reading that handy little cpl "cheat-sheet" the MSP produced stating that you can carry in a casino if your CPL is marked "exempt"... then I erroneously applied all of the restrictions lumped together, just as the MSP did, which is actually incorrect. But, what I stated above does hold true, in my opinion, for everything other than the casino restrictions found in MCL 28.425o and the court restrictions found in Administrative Order 2001-1 of the Michigan Supreme Court.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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