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Thread: oc/cc in detroit (out of stater)

  1. #1
    Regular Member SirTiger's Avatar
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    oc/cc in detroit (out of stater)

    Hello ,
    I'v been doing some reading on MI law and am a bit confused regarding recognition of other permits. Not to mention that you guys have "pistol" free zones, weird wording. I'll be flying into Detroit around Thanksgiving to spend time with some family. I'll be coming from Virginia and I would like to be positive my permit will be honored ( for CC).

    Thanks!

    Evan

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirTiger View Post
    Hello ,
    I'v been doing some reading on MI law and am a bit confused regarding recognition of other permits. Not to mention that you guys have "pistol" free zones, weird wording. I'll be flying into Detroit around Thanksgiving to spend time with some family. I'll be coming from Virginia and I would like to be positive my permit will be honored ( for CC).

    Thanks!

    Evan
    If you are a resident of VA and you have a VA CPL permit, I know they call them something different, my son live in Arlington, then your permit will be ok here. Michigan does not recognize non resident permits. So if you lived in Florida but had a Va Non-resident permit, it would not be any good in Michigan

    here is the MI section on permits http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,4534,7-...0639--,00.html

    you can also check http://www.handgunlaw.us/

    they keep up to date on Reciprocity laws and have interactive Maps
    Last edited by Onnie; 09-28-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    don't forget that in addition to the michigan PFZs the 1000 ft federal law in regards to schools is in effect for someone from out of state

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 09-28-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    The places you can't carry concealed in Michigan.


    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.


    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
    section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated pursuant to the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, the Initiated Law of 1996, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Private property rules apply too, if they say you can't, then, you cant.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venator View Post
    the places you can't carry concealed in michigan.


    sec. 5o. (1) subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) a school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the michigan penal code, 1931 pa 328, mcl 750.237a.

    (b) a public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) a sports arena or stadium.

    (d) a bar or tavern licensed under the michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 pa 58, mcl 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 pa 58, mcl 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “this establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 pa 58, mcl 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 pa 58, mcl 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 pa 442, mcl 15.231 to 15.246.


    (e) any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) an entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) a hospital.

    (h) a dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
    section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of r 432.1212 or a successor rule of the michigan administrative code promulgated pursuant to the michigan gaming control and revenue act, the initiated law of 1996, mcl 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) as used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    note this only applies to concealed carry. With your carry permit you may open carry in those places. *some restrictions apply but most if not all won't be an issue since you're here visiting with family.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member SirTiger's Avatar
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    Excellent. Thank you very much everyone.

    But a few elaborations though...

    -when it comes to 1000ft school zone for me, is driving on a public road passing through exempt? I.E. I leave my families house going to get some food. On the way to food I pass by a school, just pass it.

    -Here in VA even if a establishment posts a sign saying "no firearms" you cannot without a doubt say the customer saw your sign. Therefore unless the establishment tells them " you'll need to leave, no firearms." customers are not automatically breaking any law by being inside your establishment. Is that the case in MI also?

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirTiger View Post
    Excellent. Thank you very much everyone.

    But a few elaborations though...

    -when it comes to 1000ft school zone for me, is driving on a public road passing through exempt? I.E. I leave my families house going to get some food. On the way to food I pass by a school, just pass it.

    -Here in VA even if a establishment posts a sign saying "no firearms" you cannot without a doubt say the customer saw your sign. Therefore unless the establishment tells them " you'll need to leave, no firearms." customers are not automatically breaking any law by being inside your establishment. Is that the case in MI also?
    When it comes to the 1,000ft school zone rule he is referring to the GFSZA. You must be licensed by the state in which the school zone is located.
    if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of
    the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law
    enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    The law does specify that you are KNOWINGLY within 1,000 feet.
    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    in my non-legal opinion, if you turn down a street and are in the process of driving past a school, then you do not meet the criteria of "knowingly"
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  10. #10
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    in my non-legal opinion, if you turn down a street and are in the process of driving past a school, then you do not meet the criteria of "knowingly"
    I would agree. Especially if you happen to not even notice there is a school there when you drive past it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  11. #11
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    Just don't talk yourself into charges.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The places you can't carry concealed in Michigan.


    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.


    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under
    section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated pursuant to the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, the Initiated Law of 1996, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), “premises” does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    Actually, according to the "letter" of the law, he can carry in those places you listed. But, I'm sure he would still be charged and convicted.

    Citation: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-432a

    He would be carrying under exemption (h) listed in the citation above, However, besides those with a Michigan CPL, the section 5o limitations ONLY apply to section 12a(f) exemptions. There is a bill in the Michigan House that would change that, but it has gone nowhere http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2011-HB-4591. But, like I said, I can imagine a person carrying under a 12(h) exemption would still be cited.

    BTW, Venator, I was going to call in with this "fact" in the form of a question when you had the competition to call in to your talk show with a legal question that would stump the wise, all-knowing panel. But, wouldn't you know it, karma came and kicked my wi$ea$$ and I missed my opportunity. Well, I'll try again next time...
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-30-2011 at 12:07 AM.
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