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Thread: Would like definitive clarification.....GFSZ/RAS....?

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Would like definitive clarification.....GFSZ/RAS....?

    Heres the probable scenerio...After if get my special 'permission slip' in Dec, I do my usual walk of 3 blocks to my kids school to get them at the end of the day. I can stand on the sidewalk in front of the school, not on the school property...If im OCing at that location would the LEO have have RAS to ask for my permit OR my ID?

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Yes, they can ask for your permit and ID. You are in a GFSZ and a permit and ID is required.

    ETA WARNING: Any anti-gun cop, school staff, parent or student, or neighbor of the school, could say you stepped on the lawn. I would highly recommend staying on the other side of the street. Atleast to start.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-28-2011 at 06:05 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Yes, they can ask for your permit and ID. You are in a GFSZ and a permit and ID is required.

    ETA WARNING: Any anti-gun cop, school staff, parent or student, or neighbor of the school, could say you stepped on the lawn. I would highly recommend staying on the other side of the street. Atleast to start.
    I thought only the permit was required?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    The Wisconsin permit will be like the AZ permit and will not bear a photo. Thus, just like with the AZ permit, you need a government issued photo ID to prove that you are the one and only person that the particular permit you possess was issued to.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I thought only the permit was required?
    I thought you read Act 35?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I thought you read Act 35?
    I was asking a genuine question, but to answer yours, I have read only bits and pieces.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I was asking a genuine question, but to answer yours, I have read only bits and pieces.
    I remember you posting on FB that you were going to. I assume you atleast read the DOJ's FAQ.


    Do I need to carry my license with me at all times?

    Yes, a licensee or an out-of-state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon must have with him or her their license document and photographic identification card unless the concealed weapon is being carried in the licensee’s dwelling or place of business or on land that they owns lease, or legally occupy. Wis. Stat. § 175.60(2g)(b).

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I thought only the permit was required?
    Yep, if they they have RAS to ask for permit (you are in a permitted area), they can then demand ID. Kinda sucks!

    175.60(2g)(b)(b) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carryinga concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee shall have with him or her his
    or her license document and photographic identification
    card and an out−of−state licensee shall have with him or
    her his or her out−of−state license and photographic identification
    card at all times during which he or she is carrying
    a concealed weapon.
    (c) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying
    a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed
    weapon shall display his or her license document and
    photographic identification card and an out−of−state
    licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display
    his or her out−of−state license and photographic
    identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the
    request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and
    with lawful authority.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I see we have much work that needs to be done (but, we already knew that).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  10. #10
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    But would there be RAS? If you are seen driving a car, do they have RAS to demand your license? The answer is no, they don't So what's the difference? I don't believe there is a difference.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    But would there be RAS? If you are seen driving a car, do they have RAS to demand your license? The answer is no, they don't So what's the difference? I don't believe there is a difference.
    If someone is open carrying in a GFSZ, they must provide thier permit and a photo ID because they are in a GFSZ. RAS is that they have an loaded and uncased firearm in a GFSZ. A permit makes it legal, and a photo ID must accompany a permit anytime they conceal carry or open carry in a GFSZ, public building, or bar/resteraunt with a class 'B' liquour license.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If someone is open carrying in a GFSZ, they must provide thier permit and a photo ID because they are in a GFSZ. RAS is that they have an loaded and uncased firearm in a GFSZ. A permit makes it legal, and a photo ID must accompany a permit anytime they conceal carry or open carry in a GFSZ, public building, or bar/resteraunt with a class 'B' liquour license.
    Unfortunately I agree with the sprocket that is broken...

  13. #13
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Unfortunately I agree with the sprocket that is broken...
    I got the knickname because I buried the rear derailer in the back spokes more times than I have gotten flat tires on my mountain bike.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer
    If you are seen driving a car, do they have RAS to demand your license? The answer is no, they don't. So what's the difference? I don't believe there is a difference.
    Without a license, having an uncased &/or loaded firearm on public property within the magical 1000' bubble that surrounds & protects schools is a crime... you can go to jail. (It's no longer a felony in WI.)

    So seeing someone too near a school with a firearm is RAS of a crime.
    Having a permit is an exception, but they don't know that until they check you.
    (I think that if there's one cop assigned to watch the little darlings enter school, & s/he 'contacts' you once, that should cover it as long as that cop is there.)

    I don't think that driving a car w/o a license is a crime, just a forfeiture.
    (But no, a LEO can't stop you just to check your DL; that's why some make up lies about your taillight being out [which, of course, isn't when you check it]... gives them an excuse to demand your license.)
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    Regular Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Without a license, having an uncased &/or loaded firearm on public property within the magical 1000' bubble that surrounds & protects schools is a crime... you can go to jail. (It's no longer a felony in WI.)

    So seeing someone too near a school with a firearm is RAS of a crime.
    Having a permit is an exception, but they don't know that until they check you.
    ...
    I think that that would be overreaching by a LEO.

    It is also a crime for a registered sex offender to walk through a playground. Would a LEO have RAS to ask for the ID of every unaccompanied male walking through the palyground with his hands in his pockets because he "might be breaking" the law?

    In Terry v Ohio the court said:
    ... in justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant the intrusion.
    I don't see "might be unlicensed" as specific enough for such a stop.

    In the same case, the court said "hunches" alone were not even RAS!

    And in determining whether the officer acted reasonably in such circumstances, due weight must be given, not to his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or "hunch," but to the specific reasonable inferences which he is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his experience.
    Last edited by Big Dipper; 09-29-2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
    I think that that would be overreaching by a LEO.

    It is also a crime for a registered sex offender to walk through a playground. Would a LEO have RAS to ask for the ID of every unaccompanied male walking through the palyground with his hands in his pockets because he "might be breaking" the law?

    In Terry v Ohio the court said:

    I don't see "might be unlicensed" as specific enough for such a stop.

    In the same case, the court said "hunches" alone were not even RAS!
    The Federal and State GFSZA's are still in place, so it is a crime to have a firearm in a school zone. There has been an exception carved out for licensee's. Based on that there clearly is RAS. I don't agree with it, but that is the way it is. A bill has been introduced to do away with the Fed. GFSZA and WCI as a lawsuit challenging the State GFSZA so it may not always be that way.

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    Multiple Choice Question

    My friend, the only definitive clarification is whether the judge says "guilty" or "not guilty" when you are standing in front of him - everything up to that point is speculation and probabilities of varying magnitude. Only you can decide how much risk is involved and how much you wish to accept.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    The Federal and State GFSZA's are still in place, so it is a crime to have a firearm in a school zone. There has been an exception carved out for licensee's. Based on that there clearly is RAS. I don't agree with it, but that is the way it is. A bill has been introduced to do away with the Fed. GFSZA and WCI as a lawsuit challenging the State GFSZA so it may not always be that way.
    It is also a crime for a felon to possess a firearm.

    If a LEO sees "someone" (say at a Culvers in Madison) with a firearem does the LEO have RAS to demand ID from the possible perp so as to establish that he is not committing a crime (afterall there are a lot of felons wandering around Madison)?

    Why would said LEO be allowed to assume that a person in the GFSZ is committing a crime and thus have sufficient RAS to demand to see the individual's permit in order to establish that he is not committing a crime? (Yes, as the OP had said, all of this after Nov. 1 and sufficient time for WI residents to recieve licenses, etc.)

    I'm sorry, but I do not yet see the difference in the two situations. The LEO cannot just feel that a crime might be taking place. He truly needs RAS in both situations.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
    It is also a crime for a felon to possess a firearm.

    If a LEO sees "someone" (say at a Culvers in Madison) with a firearem does the LEO have RAS to demand ID from the possible perp so as to establish that he is not committing a crime (afterall there are a lot of felons wandering around Madison)?
    When I say 'you', I don't mean YOU.

    No, not unless the officer has RAS that you may be a felon, then they can demand ID. For instance, if the officer remembers that you sere arrested years ago for a felony offense, then that is RAS, then the officer detain and demand ID. If he knows you are a convicted felon, or with RAS runs your ID and determines you are a felon, then it is PC.

    An officer cannot demand ID to determine if you are a felon just because you are OCing. The officer does have to have RAS. But remember, it is not you that they have to articulate reasonable suspicion to. Also, several elements of RAS combined can constitute PC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
    Why would said LEO be allowed to assume that a person in the GFSZ is committing a crime and thus have sufficient RAS to demand to see the individual's permit in order to establish that he is not committing a crime? (Yes, as the OP had said, all of this after Nov. 1 and sufficient time for WI residents to recieve licenses, etc.)
    If you are OCing in a school zone, and an officer sees it or anyone sees it and reports it, then that is RAS. One, you are in a GFSZ. Two, you have a gun that is visible. That is RAS. If you do not produce upon request a valid CWL and Photo ID, then there is PC and you will be arrested.

    You must provide a Liscene and Photo ID upon request if you Open Carry in a GFSZ, public building, state park, or any place that has class "B" liqouor license BECAUSE a CWL and Photo ID are required to be able to do so.



    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
    I'm sorry, but I do not yet see the difference in the two situations. The LEO cannot just feel that a crime might be taking place. He truly needs RAS in both situations.
    If you still don't see the difference, I suggest you do a little research into Reasonable Suspicion.

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    Ask Yourself

    What is the default condition?

    GFSZ - No firearm unless licensed. People are not automatically licensed. License is the exception.
    GFSZ carry is illegal - the rule. GFSZ carry w/license is legal - the exception. Therefore RAS.

    Culvers - Open carry generally legal. People must do something to be unable to openly carry.
    Open carry is legal - the rule. Open carry is illegal - the exception. Therefore no RAS.

    Sex Offender example - Being in the proximity of children is lawful unless a person does something to make it unlawful.
    Being around children is legal - the rule. Sex offender around children is illegal - the exception. Therefore no RAS.

    Of course these examples presume no special knowledge on the part of a LEO. If a LEO spots you OC'ing in a GFSZ (off grounds) but knows from previous encounter or clairvoyance that you have a valid license, he has no RAS to roust you (at least for a GFSZ violation). Seeing a felon who is known to him carrying is PC to arrest. Same with known S.O. at the playground. Other situations fall in between - LEO sees person known to be 19 y.o. OC'ing in school zone. OC'er cannot possibly have a valid license - RAS at least. Whether WI resident or not - 19 y.o. cannot have a WI license, OOSL of no value (at least against federal charge). LEO sees person who definitely looks under 21...RAS? Looks kinda young? I dunno. Is a known opponent of licensing? Maybe. Is known to be 48 but from Chicago -probably. Is wearing a Cubs hat? No, Cubs have a lot of fans in Wisconsin and elsewhere. White Sox, maybe.

  21. #21
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Needed to show permit for being within 1,000 feet of a school while open carrying is like having to show your I.D. so they can check to see if you are a felon in possession of a firearm.

    175.60(2g)(b)(b) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carryinga concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee shall have with him or her his
    or her license document and photographic identification
    card and an out−of−state licensee shall have with him or
    her his or her out−of−state license and photographic identification
    card at all times during which he or she is carrying
    a concealed weapon.
    (c) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying
    a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed
    weapon shall display his or her license document and
    photographic identification card and an out−of−state
    licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display
    his or her out−of−state license and photographic
    identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the
    request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and
    with lawful authority.
    This only applies to carrying a CONCEALED weapon.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  22. #22
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Without a license, having an uncased &/or loaded firearm on public property within the magical 1000' bubble that surrounds & protects schools is a crime... you can go to jail. (It's no longer a felony in WI.)
    IF you are refering to the FED GFSZA, then you are absolutely correct. Obviously.

    But if you are refering to state law, then you are contradicting yourself. The state GFSZA is a forfeiture. I stated before that it was an officers discretion to arrest for forfietures and you proved me wrong on that earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    So seeing someone too near a school with a firearm is RAS of a crime.
    Having a permit is an exception, but they don't know that until they check you.
    I am in total agreement. Thanks for stating it that clear and simple. I think I used way tooo many word in my explanation.


    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    (I think that if there's one cop assigned to watch the little darlings enter school, & s/he 'contacts' you once, that should cover it as long as that cop is there.)
    Or if you live in a small town and they all know you.

    But consider, even if that one 'assigned' cop does know you, anyone else, i.e. parent, student, teacher, staff, neighbor or passerby that calls into 911 will prompt a response.
    > > > > >>>>>>>

    Unless perhaps, the person calling 911 names you and the dispatcher knows you are licensed, then maybe there won't be a response.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I don't think that driving a car w/o a license is a crime, just a forfeiture.
    Operating w/o a Valid DL, and Operating After Suspension are just forfeitures. But Operating After Revocation, if revoked because of an OWI conviction, or with 5 years of a previous OAR conviction, is criminal. However, a first offense OAR not based on OWI, or if there is more than 5 years since of a previous OAR conviction, then they are just forteitures as well.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-30-2011 at 01:59 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Needed to show permit for being within 1,000 feet of a school while open carrying is like having to show your I.D. so they can check to see if you are a felon in possession of a firearm.

    175.60(2g)(b)(b) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carryinga concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee shall have with him or her his
    or her license document and photographic identification
    card and an out−of−state licensee shall have with him or
    her his or her out−of−state license and photographic identification
    card at all times during which he or she is carrying
    a concealed weapon.
    (c) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying
    a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed
    weapon shall display his or her license document and
    photographic identification card and an out−of−state
    licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display
    his or her out−of−state license and photographic
    identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the
    request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and
    with lawful authority.
    This only applies to carrying a CONCEALED weapon.
    I want to put this politely. You are wrong.

    You only quoted one part of a WI statute. There are a few others that need to be considered. In particular, you must understand WI ss. 948.605 and the changes made to it by WI ACT35 in context of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv),(v), (vi), or (vii).

    I suggest that you read all of WI ACT while reviewing the current statutes that are affected to put it all into context in light of 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv),(v), (vi), or (vii)..

    FYI. There are only a handful of people that contribute to the WI forum that have studied this more than me. I am not bragging. I have had alot of extra time on my hands.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 09-30-2011 at 02:20 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    When I say 'you', I don't mean YOU.

    No, not unless the officer has RAS that you may be a felon, then they can demand ID. For instance, if the officer remembers that you sere arrested years ago for a felony offense, then that is RAS, then the officer detain and demand ID. If he knows you are a convicted felon, or with RAS runs your ID and determines you are a felon, then it is PC.

    An officer cannot demand ID to determine if you are a felon just because you are OCing. The officer does have to have RAS. But remember, it is not you that they have to articulate reasonable suspicion to. Also, several elements of RAS combined can constitute PC.




    If you are OCing in a school zone, and an officer sees it or anyone sees it and reports it, then that is RAS. One, you are in a GFSZ. Two, you have a gun that is visible. That is RAS. If you do not produce upon request a valid CWL and Photo ID, then there is PC and you will be arrested.

    You must provide a Liscene and Photo ID upon request if you Open Carry in a GFSZ, public building, state park, or any place that has class "B" liqouor license BECAUSE a CWL and Photo ID are required to be able to do so.



    If you still don't see the difference, I suggest you do a little research into Reasonable Suspicion.
    Thanks. That helps alot!

    Let me ask about one more speculative scenario, if I may.

    LEO "sees" what he "believes" to be a magazine (not the type one reads) under you jacket on your left hip, but does not see a firearm or even a print. Does he have RAS (you are possibly carrying concealed) to ask for license and ID? Ask that you lift your coat to show your possible magazine and perhaps firearm?

  25. #25
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dipper View Post
    Thanks. That helps alot!

    Let me ask about one more speculative scenario, if I may.

    LEO "sees" what he "believes" to be a magazine (not the type one reads) under you jacket on your left hip, but does not see a firearm or even a print. Does he have RAS (you are possibly carrying concealed) to ask for license and ID? Ask that you lift your coat to show your possible magazine and perhaps firearm?
    If you are carrying concealed, you must provide license and ID upon request. I cannot find anything that says that RAS is needed to make the request, just that if the request is made, you must comply if you are carrying concealed.

    If you are not carrying concealed, you can refuse the request. But if he believes he saw a magazine, he may be able to articulate that he reasonably suspected that you were also carrrying a concealed firearm. I cannot answer definitively, because I am quite not sure if that is enough RAS to warrant a Terry Stop.

    (my brain ain't working rightnow, I only slept an hour last night. I will be back later after a nap to see if I am making sense)

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