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Thread: B.A.T.F.E. Rules on Medical Marijuana.

  1. #1
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    B.A.T.F.E. Rules on Medical Marijuana.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...-for-pot-users

    If you use weed for any reason you can not own use or possess firearms. I figured it wouldn't be long before the ATF made there stance official.
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 09-28-2011 at 09:35 PM.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    I posted the same thing here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1618735

    only five minutes before you.

    +++++

    Quote Originally Posted by T Mack View Post
    I know a couple people that have a medical marihuana license and a CPL license. What if any kind of issues do you think that will have?
    According to the BATFE, people with medical marijuana cards cannot purchase firearms or ammunition, and in fact cannot possess firearms or ammunition.

    Here is the recent BATFE letter to FFLs.

    http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...l-purposes.pdf

    Here's the last paragraph (edited):

    Therefore, any person who uses...marijuana, regardless of whether his or her State has passed legislation authorizing marijuana for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user...and is prohibited by Federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition...As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered "no" to question 11.e. on ATF Form 4473.

    In fact, you do not technically even have to be a marijuana user. Just the fact you possess a medical marijuana card disqualifies you from possessing firearms and ammunition.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Interesting... cause people can own a card and not use marijuana at ALL.

    So if you own a card and do not use at all whatsoever (say for example, a friend who is a caregiver pays for your card so he can grow more) then you can't own or possess?

    If that's the case, how does one go about revoking their card?
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    And it is being used.
    A relative of mine was notified today that he has been denied his CPL app. because he has an MML card registered in Mich.

    Also I have made it known to a couple of acquaintances that got their MML...after...they had got their CPL;
    If they are caught in possession of drugs while armed...they're burned!

    So would you rather defend your life or get a quick buzz?

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Interesting... cause people can own a card and not use marijuana at ALL.

    So if you own a card and do not use at all whatsoever (say for example, a friend who is a caregiver pays for your card so he can grow more) then you can't own or possess?

    If that's the case, how does one go about revoking their card?
    Don't know if you can revoke it or not; or just not renew it next year. Either way you're still burned as being on record of having an MML.

    ALL MML holders have put their name on a hit list for the rest of their life...JMO.

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    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I posted the same thing here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1618735

    only five minutes before you.

    +++++

    According to the BATFE, people with medical marijuana cards cannot purchase firearms or ammunition, and in fact cannot possess firearms or ammunition.

    Here is the recent BATFE letter to FFLs.

    http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...l-purposes.pdf

    Here's the last paragraph (edited):

    Therefore, any person who uses...marijuana, regardless of whether his or her State has passed legislation authorizing marijuana for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user...and is prohibited by Federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition...As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered "no" to question 11.e. on ATF Form 4473.

    In fact, you do not technically even have to be a marijuana user. Just the fact you possess a medical marijuana card disqualifies you from possessing firearms and ammunition.
    Do you have a cite for this?

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I posted the same thing here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1618735

    only five minutes before you.

    +++++

    According to the BATFE, people with medical marijuana cards cannot purchase firearms or ammunition, and in fact cannot possess firearms or ammunition.

    Here is the recent BATFE letter to FFLs.

    http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...l-purposes.pdf

    Here's the last paragraph (edited):

    Therefore, any person who uses...marijuana, regardless of whether his or her State has passed legislation authorizing marijuana for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user...and is prohibited by Federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition...As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered "no" to question 11.e. on ATF Form 4473.

    In fact, you do not technically even have to be a marijuana user. Just the fact you possess a medical marijuana card disqualifies you from possessing firearms and ammunition.
    Yea, didn't see that I'll take down the thread if you want.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    Do you have a cite for this?
    Same thing here.. looking for that as well. I know at least a handful of people who are not users and have never used, but have cards to help out caregivers who grow. Those cards were paid for by the caregiver, for the sole purpose of allowing the caregiver to grow more.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  9. #9
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    I think this spells it out here.


    Therefore, any person who uses or is addicted to marijuana, regardless of whether his or her State has passed legislation authorizing marijuana use for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance, and is prohibited by Federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition.

    Just because someone has a card does not mean they use or are addicted to marijuana. If you test negative, clearly you're not a user, or at least a frequent user. Owning a card doesn't make you a user; just like owning a CPL doesn't mean you're carrying a gun.
    Last edited by malignity; 09-28-2011 at 10:49 PM.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Yea, didn't see that I'll take down the thread if you want.
    No, leave this thread up. This is a good discussion.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    Do you have a cite for this?
    Yes. I have already provided it: the BATFE letter. Read it. It specifically states:

    "Further, if you are aware that the potential transferee is in possession of a card authorizing the possession and use of marijuana under State law, then you have "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance. As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered "no" to question 11.e. on ATF From 4473."

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Just a few of the other reports in the news:

    “In fact, the policy goes so far as to say even being in possession of a medical cannabis card forfeits a citizen’s Second Amendment rights whether or not that person ever followed through and used cannabis for their condition.”

    Chris Lindsey, a lawyer specializing in medical marijuana cases, wrote: “With a stroke of a pen, the Department of Justice has suspended the Second Amendment for those who use medical cannabis.”

    http://billingsgazette.com/news/stat...7131ce617.html

    The MTCIA was shocked to receive a memo written by the Department of Justice addressed to individuals and companies who sell firearms. The memo states in no uncertain terms that according to the Department of Justice, it is illegal for people who are listed as medical marijuana patients to own a gun or ammo.

    Thus, with a stroke of a pen, the Department of Justice has suspended the 2nd Amendment for those use medical cannabis. In fact, the right to bear arms is eliminated simply by being listed in the registry. Whether or not a person has ever been in possession of marijuana or impaired by its use while around a gun is completely irrelevant. If you are in the registry at all, you do not have the right to have a firearm for any reason. End of story.

    http://www.mtcia.org/2011/09/mtcia-s...abis-patients/

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    Once again, safer to break the law, than to try to follow it.

    Laws cannot protect freedom, they can only impede it.

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    I had been thinking about getting a MM card, in an effort to protect myself from someone who has marijuana on them in my vehicle or home, and didnt tell me about it.

    I guarantee, that at least 8 out of 10 of you, are acquaintances, friends with, or have family members of someone who uses pot, legally or otherwise. Its everywhere, all the time. Like CC, you dont see it, but its there.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-28-2011 at 11:30 PM.

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Once again, safer to break the law, than to try to follow it.

    Laws cannot protect freedom, they can only impede it.

    ..............

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Luther King, Jr.
    One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
    Last edited by fozzy71; 09-28-2011 at 11:31 PM.
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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Same thing here.. looking for that as well.
    I reiterated the cite to RenegadeMarine, but I would also refer you to the post WARCHILD made. This is already being used.

    "A relative of mine was notified today that he has been denied his CPL app. because he has an MML card registered in Mich."

    If you are on the MML registry, you are toast. I think these notifications are being made all over the US (where applicable) now.

  17. #17
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    ..............
    You probably should have gone back to Thoreau, but whatever.

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    BATFU is gonna get their aces sued for this stunt.


    Thats awesome, one step closer to outright re-legalization.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-29-2011 at 12:44 AM.

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    Somebody should post this in the Legal Beagle section of MGO too.

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Good idea. I only read the OC section over there. Will do.

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    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Yes. I have already provided it: the BATFE letter. Read it. It specifically states:

    "Further, if you are aware that the potential transferee is in possession of a card authorizing the possession and use of marijuana under State law, then you have "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance. As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered "no" to question 11.e. on ATF From 4473."
    I have read this letter several times, and I do not see anywhere in the letter that says the mere possession of an MML prohibits a person from owning or possessing a firearm or ammunition. What is says is that IF an FFL becomes aware that a person is in possesion of an MML that will give the FFL "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance. Now if the FFL does not know that you have an MML (and you do not use marijuana) that would be a legal sale/purchase. The fact still remains that it is illegal for a user to buy a firearm. It says nothing about being a card holder alone will disqualify you from owning or posessing a firearm. But having an MML(and the FFL finds out) will lead the FFL to believe that you are a user, and refuse the sale.

    Thats how I interpreted it, YMMV.

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    Angry

    Whats next, a drug test at the point of sale?

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    I have read this letter several times, and I do not see anywhere in the letter that says the mere possession of an MML prohibits a person from owning or possessing a firearm or ammunition. What is says is that IF an FFL becomes aware that a person is in possesion of an MML that will give the FFL "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance.
    Correct.
    Now if the FFL does not know that you have an MML (and you do not use marijuana) that would be a legal sale/purchase.
    Correct, that's how I read it as well.
    The fact still remains that it is illegal for a user to buy a firearm. It says nothing about being a card holder alone will disqualify you from owning or posessing a firearm. But having an MML(and the FFL finds out) will lead the FFL to believe that you are a user, and refuse the sale.
    However, the BATFE states that the mere possession of a card is enough probable cause, if you will. The State of MI is already using this, as evidenced by WARCHILD's post.

    Technically it isn't against the law. Ten years ago it wasn't technically against the law for a MI resident to have an out-of-state CPL and get thrown in jail anyway for carrying. Technically the law said you were legal. How many people lost that argument? The BATFE's position seems to be that mere possession of a MML card is enough to charge you with a gun crime if caught with a firearm or ammunition. You want to fight that?
    Last edited by griffin; 09-29-2011 at 01:09 AM.

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    So, CPL holder gets suspended, goes to Dr. gets drug test documented as clean. then sues for deprivation of rights.

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    Somebody needs to fight it. A MM card might be political protest.

    If they did use it for PC, then you should be innocent until proven guily, and only suspend if you're positive.

    A CPL is implied consent, but only if theres probable cause. Therefore they could test you according to MCL 28.425k, but suspending you without proof would be illegal.

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