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B.A.T.F.E. Rules on Medical Marijuana.

RenegadeMarine

RenegadeMarine

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79
Location
Fraser, Michigan, USA
griffin said:
Yes. I have already provided it: the BATFE letter. Read it. It specifically states:

"Further, if you are aware that the potential transferee is in possession of a card authorizing the possession and use of marijuana under State law, then you have "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance. As such, you may not transfer firearms or ammunition to the person, even if the person answered "no" to question 11.e. on ATF From 4473."
Click to expand...

I have read this letter several times, and I do not see anywhere in the letter that says the mere possession of an MML prohibits a person from owning or possessing a firearm or ammunition. What is says is that IF an FFL becomes aware that a person is in possesion of an MML that will give the FFL "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance. Now if the FFL does not know that you have an MML (and you do not use marijuana) that would be a legal sale/purchase. The fact still remains that it is illegal for a user to buy a firearm. It says nothing about being a card holder alone will disqualify you from owning or posessing a firearm. But having an MML(and the FFL finds out) will lead the FFL to believe that you are a user, and refuse the sale.

Thats how I interpreted it, YMMV.
 
griffin

griffin

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RenegadeMarine said:
I have read this letter several times, and I do not see anywhere in the letter that says the mere possession of an MML prohibits a person from owning or possessing a firearm or ammunition. What is says is that IF an FFL becomes aware that a person is in possesion of an MML that will give the FFL "reasonable cause to believe" that the person is an unlawful user of a controlled substance.
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Correct.
Now if the FFL does not know that you have an MML (and you do not use marijuana) that would be a legal sale/purchase.
Click to expand...
Correct, that's how I read it as well.
The fact still remains that it is illegal for a user to buy a firearm. It says nothing about being a card holder alone will disqualify you from owning or posessing a firearm. But having an MML(and the FFL finds out) will lead the FFL to believe that you are a user, and refuse the sale.
Click to expand...
However, the BATFE states that the mere possession of a card is enough probable cause, if you will. The State of MI is already using this, as evidenced by WARCHILD's post.

Technically it isn't against the law. Ten years ago it wasn't technically against the law for a MI resident to have an out-of-state CPL and get thrown in jail anyway for carrying. Technically the law said you were legal. How many people lost that argument? The BATFE's position seems to be that mere possession of a MML card is enough to charge you with a gun crime if caught with a firearm or ammunition. You want to fight that?
 
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stainless1911

stainless1911

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Somebody needs to fight it. A MM card might be political protest.

If they did use it for PC, then you should be innocent until proven guily, and only suspend if you're positive.

A CPL is implied consent, but only if theres probable cause. Therefore they could test you according to MCL 28.425k, but suspending you without proof would be illegal.
 
RenegadeMarine

RenegadeMarine

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Fraser, Michigan, USA
griffin said:
Correct.Correct, that's how I read it as well. However, the BATFE states that the mere possession of a card is enough probable cause, if you will. The State of MI is already using this, as evidenced by WARCHILD's post.

Technically it isn't against the law. Ten years ago it wasn't technically against the law for a MI resident to have an out-of-state CPL and get thrown in jail anyway for carrying. Technically the law said you were legal. How many people lost that argument? The BATFE's position seems to be that mere possession of a MML card is enough to charge you with a gun crime if caught with a firearm or ammunition. You want to fight that?
Click to expand...

I still have not seen where the BATFE has made that statement. The letter only referenced the purchasing of a firearm by a marijuana user who has an MML, it does not mention the ownership/possession of a firearm by an MML holder, who is not a user, being a criminal act.

By the way, I am not an MML holder, Nor am I a user. So I do not have a dog in this fight.
 
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steve jaye

steve jaye

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Plymouth
My buddy has had his MMC since they came out and he just got his CPL a few months ago with no issues. This is in Oakland Co. Also where does HIPAA come into play?
 
H

Haman J.T.

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In the 30's the racists banned pot to deport Mexicans who were in the southwest U.S and infringed on the use of full auto's,both of which were legal up to that point.They've been taking the freedom to choose to smoke and to bear arms for a long time.Only now people are waking up to it! CARRY ON!
 
malignity

malignity

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Warren, Michigan, USA
steve jaye said:
My buddy has had his MMC since they came out and he just got his CPL a few months ago with no issues. This is in Oakland Co. Also where does HIPAA come into play?
Click to expand...

i dont know that hipaa can save you. they have to pull your records to check for mental illness, no? Can they also look for that? I have no idea.

heres a question: has anyone with an active card purchased a firearm sucessfully from an FFL after otaining said card? does the NICS system have that information, i mean?
 
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Venator

Venator

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Jan 10, 2007
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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
malignity said:
i dont know that hipaa can save you. they have to pull your records to check for mental illness, no? Can they also look for that? I have no idea.

heres a question: has anyone with an active card purchased a firearm sucessfully AFTER obtaining said card?
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I don't think they can pull your medical records to check for mental illness without your consent. Kent Country tried this by making CPL holders sign a release to check. They were taken to task and have stopped that practice.

You swear under oath that you answered the questions on your CPL application, that's it.
 
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steve jaye

steve jaye

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Plymouth
malignity said:
i dont know that hipaa can save you. they have to pull your records to check for mental illness, no? Can they also look for that? I have no idea.

heres a question: has anyone with an active card purchased a firearm sucessfully from an FFL after otaining said card? does the NICS system have that information, i mean?
Click to expand...

That same friend has purchased 2 hand guns, one from Target in Kegoo Harbor and i dont remember the name of the other dealer. No issues what so ever.
 
MilProGuy

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Jul 7, 2011
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Mississippi
malignity said:
I think this spells it out here.


Therefore, any person who uses or is addicted to marijuana, regardless of whether his or her State has passed legislation authorizing marijuana use for medicinal purposes, is an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance, and is prohibited by Federal law from possessing firearms or ammunition.

Just because someone has a card does not mean they use or are addicted to marijuana. If you test negative, clearly you're not a user, or at least a frequent user. Owning a card doesn't make you a user; just like owning a CPL doesn't mean you're carrying a gun.
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You made a excellent point in your first paragraph.

However, in the second paragraph of our statement, I am a little unclear as to what you were saying.

If a person has a marijuana card and takes the controlled substance on a regular basis, that is an addiction of sorts. You stated that "owning a card doesn't make you a user...", but, respectfully, why would a person own a card if they didn't use marijuana? They would need to be a user to have the prescription.
 
stainless1911

stainless1911

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No, read my above post.

The other reason I was thinking about getting a MM card, is because I believe in the re-legalisation of pot, and since they keep statistics of how many people have cards, it would be sort of a vote for pot.
 
MilProGuy

MilProGuy

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stainless1911 said:
No, read my above post.

The other reason I was thinking about getting a MM card, is because I believe in the re-legalisation of pot, and since they keep statistics of how many people have cards, it would be sort of a vote for pot.
Click to expand...

Err...you can't just go into some government office and "get" a MM card if you don't have a medical reason for it to be prescribed.
 
smellslikemichigan

smellslikemichigan

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Jun 16, 2008
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Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
griffin said:
I reiterated the cite to RenegadeMarine, but I would also refer you to the post WARCHILD made. This is already being used.

"A relative of mine was notified today that he has been denied his CPL app. because he has an MML card registered in Mich."

If you are on the MML registry, you are toast. I think these notifications are being made all over the US (where applicable) now.
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denials are not final, there is an appeals process
 
Y

Yance

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Sep 15, 2011
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Battle Creek, MI
Actually they arent privy to your medical records without your consent, they are protected by HIPPA. So unless you say that you have a MML they wouldnt know. If they are gaining access to your medical records and you have gave them no consent, and the reason for the denial was because of something in your medical records they are violating HIPPA policy. I emailed a lawyer about it cause a friend of mine has his card and he was interested in a CPL. The Kormorn Law Office replied stating that it wont interfere in MI because its protected by HIPPA, also when the law was enacted it was set that the MML wouldnt interfere with any other state issued lincenses, such as a CPL.
 
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