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Thread: ATF - Illegal to sell guns to marijuana card holders

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    ATF - Illegal to sell guns to marijuana card holders

    http://www.heraldnet.com/article/201...WS02/709299919

    Firearms dealers in states that allow medical marijuana can't sell guns or ammunition to registered users of the drug, a policy that marijuana and gun-rights groups say denies Second Amendment rights to individuals who are following state law.

    Federal law already makes it illegal for someone to possess a gun if he or she is "an unlawful user of, or addicted to" marijuana or other controlled substances. A Sept. 21 letter from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, issued in response to numerous inquiries from gun dealers, clarifies that medical marijuana patients are included in that definition.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    This makes sense to me.

    The effect of marijuana on a person's mind and on their reaction time will be the same regardless of whether or not they have a "prescription" for it.

    It is still a controlled substance either way.

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    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Makes sense to me. If you've got a crippling medical issue that allows you to relieve yourself of the pain with something on par with alcohol, you should give up your rights to defend yourself entirely. Wait, wait...what?!
    Last edited by skiingislife725; 09-29-2011 at 11:00 AM.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Selling a weapon to someone using mind altering drugs is like giving a free loaded pistol with every 10th shot of tequila at a bar. The two don't mix, you are told not to drive or operate heavy equipment when you are perscribed narcotics at the Dr's office for a reason. The same is for carrying a loaded weapon, if and when I go into a bar and I'm carrying OC/CC I don't drink anything alcoholic. Dam I can't remember when I had an alcoholic drink as I always carry.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Just one problem with that "controlled substances" thing. It could include almost every over the counter pain reliever, even aspirin. For example, 600mg ibuprofen tablets are a controlled item, even though you can buy large bottles full of 200mg tablets. Acetaminophen comes in tablets up to 500mg over the counter, but it's illegal to possess 1000mg tablets of it without a valid prescription.

    Depending on how "controlled" is interpreted, almost any drug could be construed to forbid firearm possession/ownership.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Selling a weapon to someone using mind altering drugs is like giving a free loaded pistol with every 10th shot of tequila at a bar. The two don't mix, you are told not to drive or operate heavy equipment when you are perscribed narcotics at the Dr's office for a reason. The same is for carrying a loaded weapon, if and when I go into a bar and I'm carrying OC/CC I don't drink anything alcoholic. Dam I can't remember when I had an alcoholic drink as I always carry.
    Sounds like the voice of reason to me.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Just one problem with that "controlled substances" thing. It could include almost every over the counter pain reliever, even aspirin. For example, 600mg ibuprofen tablets are a controlled item, even though you can buy large bottles full of 200mg tablets. Acetaminophen comes in tablets up to 500mg over the counter, but it's illegal to possess 1000mg tablets of it without a valid prescription.

    Depending on how "controlled" is interpreted, almost any drug could be construed to forbid firearm possession/ownership.
    You need to attend medical school, there are different classes of medications. Asprin, tylenol, and Motrin are not considered to be class III or class IV medications. Tylenol is considerd more a anti-pyretic and Motrin is a NASID (anti-inflamitory) both work differently as tylenol is processed through the liver and motrin through the kidneys. This is why when someone takes an overdose of tylenol we worry about the liver and if you take to much motrin then we worry about the kidneys. Neither of these products you mention affect the mind like a narcodic does. As far as the 600mg tablets of motrin I usally use the 800mg tablets but today I only had the 200mg tabs so I took 4 of them. 200 x 4 + 800...yea I got my 800mg of motrin this morning and I didn't break any laws doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    You need to attend medical school, there are different classes of medications. Asprin, tylenol, and Motrin are not considered to be class III or class IV medications. Tylenol is considerd more a anti-pyretic and Motrin is a NASID (anti-inflamitory) both work differently as tylenol is processed through the liver and motrin through the kidneys. This is why when someone takes an overdose of tylenol we worry about the liver and if you take to much motrin then we worry about the kidneys. Neither of these products you mention affect the mind like a narcodic does. As far as the 600mg tablets of motrin I usally use the 800mg tablets but today I only had the 200mg tabs so I took 4 of them. 200 x 4 + 800...yea I got my 800mg of motrin this morning and I didn't break any laws doing it.
    For one who criticizes another about medical school, it seems you'd be a bit better versed yourself. "Narcotic" is a medically useless term. It originally referred to opioid derivatives, then to drugs that had a "downer" propert, but now is anything on an arbitrary list. For example, cocaine is considered a "narcotic", even though it is an upper.

    Vicodin is hydrocodone (an opioid derivative) mixed with acetaminophen (aka Tylenol). For some, it does practically nothing (e.g. when I had my wisdom teeth taken out, the ibuprofen (aka Motrin, an NSAID - non steroidal anti inflammatory drug) was much more helpful). Others get super relaxed or zoned out when they take it. Some get amped up and loopy.

    Due to chronic pain, I know people on this board who are on a constant vicodin prescription. I would not deny them the right to self-defense merely because of a medicine they take.

    Why should it be any different for medical marijuana patients? Because of some arbitrary list?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    'Got enough problems with dopers and guns already.

    ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
    substance?
    Checkmate.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    'Got enough problems with dopers and guns already.

    ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
    substance?
    Checkmate.
    And this is why this law is in place.

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    So... I am confused at the moment.... are they defining Medical Marijuana users as felons, and denying their right to buy a firearm NOW? I still don't understand the issues with Medical Marijuana and its legality STATE-WISE, but I am confused at this.... wouldn't Marijuana users already be denied the right since it's still a federal offense to use Marijuana?

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    So... I am confused at the moment.... are they defining Medical Marijuana users as felons, and denying their right to buy a firearm NOW? I still don't understand the issues with Medical Marijuana and its legality STATE-WISE, but I am confused at this.... wouldn't Marijuana users already be denied the right since it's still a federal offense to use Marijuana?
    They are not defining in the statement that medical marijuana users are felons, they are saying "anyone using it illegally OR addicted to....the key word is OR in the ATF's sentence. If you are taking it for a long period of time say in a perscription form and I don't know anyone that just has one cig and they are healed. That isn't the purpose of saying it is for a medical condition; then you are hooked.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    For one who criticizes another about medical school, it seems you'd be a bit better versed yourself. "Narcotic" is a medically useless term. It originally referred to opioid derivatives, then to drugs that had a "downer" propert, but now is anything on an arbitrary list. For example, cocaine is considered a "narcotic", even though it is an upper.

    Vicodin is hydrocodone (an opioid derivative) mixed with acetaminophen (aka Tylenol). For some, it does practically nothing (e.g. when I had my wisdom teeth taken out, the ibuprofen (aka Motrin, an NSAID - non steroidal anti inflammatory drug) was much more helpful). Others get super relaxed or zoned out when they take it. Some get amped up and loopy.

    Due to chronic pain, I know people on this board who are on a constant vicodin prescription. I would not deny them the right to self-defense merely because of a medicine they take.

    Why should it be any different for medical marijuana patients? Because of some arbitrary list?
    So we shouldn't deny the mentally impaired the right to self defense either. What about people that are drunk, letís give them guns and car keys, it would do away with the DUI problem and increase the funeral home business. Just like with alcohol, and some medications, marijuana impairs a personís ability to react or make good judgments. If you are on a medication everyday that impairs your reflex or mental abilities then you shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Everyone I have heard about taking marijuana for a chronic medical condition smokes it every day so they are under the influence every day. If that is the case you would agree to give the car keys back to the drunks as we shouldn't limit their ability to drive just because they are drunk.

    A upper can be as bad as a downer when it comes to reaction times and making a good chioce when carring a firearm. Most people Identify with the term NARCODIC when referring to a drug that changes a persons way of thinking. We can throw all types of medical terms around but it wouldn't be fair to people that don't have a medical back ground.

    You are very impressive with your spelling out a lot of medical terms; I thought about typing out all that crap but decided to keep it in simple terms as not to sound like an arrogant *****.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    They are not defining in the statement that medical marijuana users are felons, they are saying "anyone using it illegally OR addicted to....the key word is OR in the ATF's sentence. If you are taking it for a long period of time say in a perscription form and I don't know anyone that just has one cig and they are healed. That isn't the purpose of saying it is for a medical condition; then you are hooked.
    Since Marijuana is illegal under Federal Law there is no way one can be using it legally---under Federal Law. Since the ATF regs are Federal basically they are saying "We don't care if your State says it's OK, We don't", therefore anyone with a Medical MJ card that answers "No" to this question will be guilty of violating another Federal Law as well.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Since Marijuana is illegal under Federal Law there is no way one can be using it legally---under Federal Law. Since the ATF regs are Federal basically they are saying "We don't care if your State says it's OK, We don't", therefore anyone with a Medical MJ card that answers "No" to this question will be guilty of violating another Federal Law as well.
    Actually there are still about 3-4 people of a grop of 8 that where granted a FEDERAL MEDICAL MARIJUANA CARD by the Federal goverment as a test program. One of these ladies lives in Oregon.

    Who are the patients receiving medical marijuana through the federal government's Compassionate IND program?
    General Reference (not clearly pro or con)

    Eight known* Compassionate Investigational New Drug (IND) patients, four of whom are still living as of Sep. 9, 2010:
    Name of Patient
    (in alphabetical order) Diagnosis Date Entered
    IND Program Marijuana Dosage Per Month
    (One cured ounce is about 40 cigarettes) Status
    (as of Apr. 22, 2010)
    1. Douglass, Barbara
    Multiple Sclerosis
    Aug. 30, 1991 Nine cured oz (360 joints)
    Active program participant
    2. Jenks, Barbra AIDS Feb. 19, 1991
    (1st shipment) Unknown Passed away Mar. 28, 1992
    3. Jenks, Kenny AIDS Feb. 19, 1991(1st shipment) Unknown Passed away July 19, 1993
    4. McMahon, George
    Nail Patella Syndrome
    Mar. 16, 1990 Eight cured oz (320 joints)
    Active program participant
    5. Millet, Corrine
    Glaucoma
    Nov. 16, 1990 Four cured oz (160 joints)
    Passed away Dec. 2007
    6. Musikka, Elvy
    Glaucoma
    Oct. 17, 1988 Eight cured oz (320 joints)
    Active program participant
    7. Randall, Robert
    Glaucoma
    Nov. 1976 Unknown
    Passed away June 2, 2001
    8. Rosenfeld, Irvin
    Multiple Congenital Cartilaginous Exostoses Nov. 20, 1982 Nine cured oz (360 joints)
    Active program participant


    *There were also two anonymous patients in the program whose names were witheld by request. These two patients are thought to have passed away based on evidence presented below, although their status cannot be confirmed due to their anonymity.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    So we shouldn't deny the mentally impaired the right to self defense either. What about people that are drunk,<snip>
    What other natural rights do you want to deny? The right to free speech? Perhaps you want to ban them from church? Perhaps you want to deny them their right to be secure in their possessions, right to a jury trial?

    Who should decide what is mentally impaired? Do they only lose their right to self defense via a firearm? Or do you propose removing all knives, clubs, baseball bats, sticks, rocks from their immediate location as well?
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Actually there are still about 3-4 people of a grop of 8 that where granted a FEDERAL MEDICAL MARIJUANA CARD by the Federal goverment as a test program.
    These must be the ones the Fed's used in their research that determined Medical Marijuana has no value

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul...juana-20110709

    I would say that the Medical MJ proponents could use some help in finding better "public faces". Most of those shown on TV who claim it is a necessity in their lives look like throwbacks to the 60's. What one might expect an aging hippie to look like.

    Wouldn't hurt the cause to have someone like Steve Jobs, who is undergoing cancer treatment, to come out in favor of it and show his "Card".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    What other natural rights do you want to deny? The right to free speech? Perhaps you want to ban them from church? Perhaps you want to deny them their right to be secure in their possessions, right to a jury trial?

    Who should decide what is mentally impaired? Do they only lose their right to self defense via a firearm? Or do you propose removing all knives, clubs, baseball bats, sticks, rocks from their immediate location as well?
    No you should have notice the sarcasm in some of what I was trying to say.

    I don't believe people that are under the influence of a drug or alcohol product should be driving or carriying a weapon to include a knife. The problem we have here is even people that kill others while driving under the influence are not held accountable. We have people in my small town that have over 13 DUI's, we have people that have killed whole familys but are out in years.....it was only manslaughter and the four counts where concurrent. What value do you put on your children, your family.

    If someone killed one of my kids by driving under the influence then the court will need to put one of us away for life. I consider driving under the influence the same way I do PREMEDITATED MURDER. I will be waiting at the gate if they let them out after a couple years for killing my child but others are not as concerned and others would just rather anarcy..let everyone do anything to anyone. Who cares, I never said to deny rights and other than breathing what do you classify as a NATURAL RIGHT. Do you give a loaded gun to a 3 year old? I wouldn't but it sounds like you don't care after all it is his NATURAL RIGHT.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    So then we should make it illegal for elderly people to carry guns because they aren't as "sharp". We should make it illegal to carry a gun if you have been awake for more than 16 hours straight because of slower reaction time due to fatigue? Anytime a person takes any medication that says may cause drowsiness on the label. Within one hour of eating any more than, say 750 calories at one meal?
    It is not just the reaction time it is the dicission making capability. I will answer your question about making it illegal for the elderly to carry guns with another questions. True or False States revoke drivers license's of people that show a mental impairment to driving skill due to slow reaction or decision making capability. This is mainly the elderly, my wife does driver testing for the State and she has to test anyone (99% of the time it is due to age) that the state feels might be a hazard. She has one old guy she tests 4 times a year.

    Don't get me wrong there are a lot of elderly drivers that are better...much better than a lot of younger drivers but the ones that get sent to test more often that not are due to their age and decision making skills that have slipped.

    If you take a medication that said "Causes Drowsiness...you shouldn't drive while on this medication" and you kill a family after falling a sleep at the wheel. Should you be held accountable? Should you go to prision? I feel it is no different then if you went to a gun store and bought a gun and bullets, loaded it, walked out into the street and shot the family then if you knowing walked into a pharmacy and bought the medication, took it, and drove into the family after falling asleep at the wheel.

    A little thing called being held accountable for your actions and choices.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Ah yes, the War on Drugs/Terror/The bad people, passing laws about drugs has lowered the amount of folks that use them so well. We had a wonderful example of removing Alcohol from legality in the 20s it worked so well we had to pass another Constitutional Amendment that basically said, "Nevermind". More government has never been an answer to a question of morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    So we shouldn't deny the mentally impaired the right to self defense either.
    Do you know what due process of law is? If somebody is found to be a danger to themselves or others, they should be held, but not until then. Presupposition of wrongdoing is asinine.

    What about people that are drunk, let’s give them guns and car keys, it would do away with the DUI problem and increase the funeral home business.
    False analogy. Please try not to make those, they make you look dumb.

    Just like with alcohol, and some medications, marijuana impairs a person’s ability to react or make good judgments. If you are on a medication everyday that impairs your reflex or mental abilities then you shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Everyone I have heard about taking marijuana for a chronic medical condition smokes it every day so they are under the influence every day. If that is the case you would agree to give the car keys back to the drunks as we shouldn't limit their ability to drive just because they are drunk.
    Let's make the giant ASSumption that what you said is 100% correct, even though it's not. Slowed reaction time alone is not justification for deprivation of rights.

    A upper can be as bad as a downer when it comes to reaction times and making a good chioce when carring a firearm. Most people Identify with the term NARCODIC when referring to a drug that changes a persons way of thinking. We can throw all types of medical terms around but it wouldn't be fair to people that don't have a medical back ground.
    With your spelling, I doubt you have the medical background you claim. Regardless, narcotic has a definition (a : a drug (as opium or morphine) that in moderate doses dulls the senses, relieves pain, and induces profound sleep but in excessive doses causes stupor, coma, or convulsions b : a drug (as marijuana or LSD) subject to restriction similar to that of addictive narcotics whether physiologically addictive and narcotic or not ). Note that "b" actually says "whether ... narcotic or not". As I said, it's a useless term, because it can be applied to things that aren't actually narcotics. Not getting enough sleep can be as bad as drugs when it comes to reaction times and making a good choice when carrying a firearm. However, I don't foresee you supporting legislation that preemptively strips the right to keep and bear arms from those who get less than eight hours a night.

    You are very impressive with your spelling out a lot of medical terms; I thought about typing out all that crap but decided to keep it in simple terms as not to sound like an arrogant *****.
    You misspelled common terms, so those who wanted to do their own research would have trouble looking them up. Specifically, NSAID. If I really wanted to sound like an ass, I'd have said a non-specific COX inhibitor .

    Either way, I’m just tired of our civil liberties being taken away due to the war on some drugs. It’s things like that which lead to cops being able to break down your door and do a warrantless search for fear that drugs might be flushed. Chasing cannabis users leads to unnecessary shooting of animals (with its associated risks). It leads to no-knock warrants, where a man gets killed when he’s holding a golf club because somebody just broke down the door. These are just three of the many examples where we are put in danger, not because of drug users, but because of the policies to try to eliminate drugs.
    Last edited by Tawnos; 09-29-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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    Regular Member waterfowl woody's Avatar
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    ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
    substance?

    If you have a medical marijuana card the answer is NO!
    Contolled substances would that include drinking as it is age restricted? and if it falls under depressant or stimulant. That would make alot of people who drink a couple beers a day everyday addicted, right? oops alot of people out there and on here lied on there form.
    I guess if you have a perscription then you are lawful and addiction is just ones opinion?
    hey viagra is a stimulant!!!!!!! so choose a erection or a gun.
    gosh are they gonna piss test me next time I go buy a gun? Thankfully I will pass all of those senerios, but really.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Since Marijuana is illegal under Federal Law there is no way one can be using it legally---under Federal Law. Since the ATF regs are Federal basically they are saying "We don't care if your State says it's OK, We don't", therefore anyone with a Medical MJ card that answers "No" to this question will be guilty of violating another Federal Law as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by waterfowl woody View Post
    ATF FORM 4473: e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
    substance?

    If you have a medical marijuana card the answer is NO!
    Contolled substances would that include drinking as it is age restricted? and if it falls under depressant or stimulant. That would make alot of people who drink a couple beers a day everyday addicted, right? oops alot of people out there and on here lied on there form.
    I guess if you have a perscription then you are lawful and addiction is just ones opinion?
    hey viagra is a stimulant!!!!!!! so choose a erection or a gun.
    gosh are they gonna piss test me next time I go buy a gun? Thankfully I will pass all of those senerios, but really.
    So if you have guns, and get a card will they be able to take them away? If not, I guess you better get all the guns you want before you get your stoners card.
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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    This thread is good.

    It clearly differentiates the gun grabber forum members from 2nd Amendment supporters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    So... I am confused at the moment.... are they defining Medical Marijuana users as felons, and denying their right to buy a firearm NOW? I still don't understand the issues with Medical Marijuana and its legality STATE-WISE, but I am confused at this.... wouldn't Marijuana users already be denied the right since it's still a federal offense to use Marijuana?
    It is not a federal offense to use marijuana. The CSA bans possession and manufacture not use. So how can anyone be an "illegal user" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    So if you have guns, and get a card will they be able to take them away? If not, I guess you better get all the guns you want before you get your stoners card....
    Well in Wa. you don't get a "card" per say. You get a letter of recommendation from a doctor. You can use this letter as an "affirmative defense" in court. There is no State database. The State will not even know you have a letter of recommendation unless and until you need to go to court.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 09-30-2011 at 04:21 AM.
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