ATF - Illegal to sell guns to marijuana card holders

tombrewster421 · Sep 30, 2011

Dave_pro2a said:
It's ironic that so many here advocate for the intrusive Nanny-State style of government.

I'm all for the legalize and make free for idiots that want to use it approach. I think it would be effective. Bottom line is that it's already illegal to kill someone outside of self defense. Education is key, along with using that resource we have here in WA called "the death penalty". Why can't we just keep things simple and say "if you kill someone out of negligence, you die". You think people would be more careful if we took that seriously?

BigDave · Sep 30, 2011

Sometime back they changed the law in Washington State from DWI to DUI from the key words of while intoxicated to Under the Influence so it covers not only alcohol but any drug that inhibits ones ability to operate a motor vehicle. Thus the reasoning behind there are no statistics for Driving under the influence of marijuana or other named drug versus alcohol, they are all in the same boat of sorts.

While I am a strong supporter of the right to keep and bear arms I as well have a strong position of not being impaired and carrying or driving or just being a fool in public.

DocWalker · Sep 30, 2011

gogodawgs said:
Yes. I want you to cite how many people are assaulted or killed by someone high on marijuana.

Now compare that to alcohol.

APPLES and ORANGES

Alcohol is not illegal but Marijuana is illegal, speaking in the federal terms. If you legalize marijuana and more people decide to use it "for medical reasons of course" then the numbers of those injured or killed would go up. Maybe not to the alcohol level but if it is your child killed by someone on marijuana it is one to many or would you just right your child off as a statistic.

DocWalker · Sep 30, 2011

tombrewster421 said:
I'm all for the legalize and make free for idiots that want to use it approach. I think it would be effective. Bottom line is that it's already illegal to kill someone outside of self defense. Education is key, along with using that resource we have here in WA called "the death penalty". Why can't we just keep things simple and say "if you kill someone out of negligence, you die". You think people would be more careful if we took that seriously?

I like your idea of if you kill someone out of negligence you die and not 20 years from now approach. I say let people do what they want without goverment interference but unfortunetly the goverment doesn't and communities don't hold people responsible for their actions.

Tawnos · Sep 30, 2011

DocWalker said:
APPLES and ORANGES

Alcohol is not illegal but Marijuana is illegal, speaking in the federal terms. If you legalize marijuana and more people decide to use it "for medical reasons of course" then the numbers of those injured or killed would go up. Maybe not to the alcohol level but if it is your child killed by someone on marijuana it is one to many or would you just right your child off as a statistic.

The numbers disagree with you.

The Cato report's author, Greenwald, hews to the first point: that the data shows that decriminalization does not result in increased drug use. Since that is what concerns the public and policymakers most about decriminalization, he says, "that is the central concession that will transform the debate."

gogodawgs · Sep 30, 2011

DocWalker said:
APPLES and ORANGES

Alcohol is not illegal but Marijuana is illegal, speaking in the federal terms. If you legalize marijuana and more people decide to use it "for medical reasons of course" then the numbers of those injured or killed would go up. Maybe not to the alcohol level but if it is your child killed by someone on marijuana it is one to many or would you just right your child off as a statistic.

No, it is because you can't. You are ignorant on the medical properties of both alcohol and marijuana. Please read Tawnos link below.

DocWalker · Sep 30, 2011

gogodawgs said:
No, it is because you can't. You are ignorant on the medical properties of both alcohol and marijuana. Please read Tawnos link below.

You have no clue about the affects of marijuana and alcohol. Both impair a persons ability to make a quick and informed decision. Both affect a persons reaction time. Both impair a person just like a lot of drugs perscribed by your provider. I'm not saying it should be outlawed but if a person harms someone driving or shooting their gun while drinking, smoking marijuana, or taking perscription drugs they should be taken out in the street and executed.

MilProGuy · Sep 30, 2011

amlevin said:
One can argue "High" or "Downer" but in the end it's a case of one having their mental faculties altered or impaired. Does it truly matter whether they were up and flying or down and drowsy when the do something that kills or maims another while under the influence?

No, it doesn't.

Great points.

sudden valley gunner · Sep 30, 2011

NavyLCDR said:
Here's a novel idea. How about if we make it illegal and a crime to perform a negligent ACTION with a firearm? How about adding a bonus sentence enhancement if that negligent ACTION is performed under the influence of a drug or alcohol? There are millions of people out there who could smoke a joint or have a few beers and leave the gun in the holster. A person should not be denied the right to CARRY a firearm only because they are under the influence of a drug (and alcohol is a drug, by the way). That is like making it illegal to keep your car keys in your pocket when drinking or whatever. Leave the OBJECT alone and punish behavior.

+1

Before the advent of nanny state progressive intrusiveness (which law enforcement is part of, yes make people conform by force) when someone was harmed they brought the other party to court themselves and yes often it did include imprisonment and criminal charges.

I know a combat vet with severe PTSD and MJ is about one of the only things that helps him mellow out at times. Alcohol makes him combative, so I much rather be around him after he has toked up than after he has drunk a few. And I would never dream of disarming him because of it either.

Dave_pro2a · Sep 30, 2011

As evidenced by this recent thread http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...ane-Valley-adult-home-loses-license-over-guns

Government agencies do not like guns. They look for excuses to forbid people from exercising inalienable rights. The amount of support on this forum, for that kind of behavior, is disturbing.

Private adult behavior that does not harm others is NOT a legitimate excuse to deny a person their inalienable rights.

Marijuana is not a narcotic. It just isn't, by definition. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar, or stupid. It is Orwellian action on the part of the government to call it such. That alone should make any intelligent person suspicious of the governments motives in the WoD

Prohibition causes crime, not a substance. That's the dirtiest 'secret' in the WoD. That it is designed to exacerbate the problem it allegedly is supposed to fix. It's about redistributing tax dollars, and gaining political power -- nothing more. Not justice, not protecting children, not protecting property. Just money and power.

To claim something is wrong, only because it is illegal, is un-American thinking. We question, we protest, we break unjust laws, we revolt when needed. That's our history. As a nation we used to try and do what was moral, not legal. Might be a good idea to try that approach again.

1911er · Oct 1, 2011

stimulant

woody said "hey viagra is a stimulant!!!!!!! so choose a erection or a gun."

At least you can hold onto both!! ROTFLMAO

1911er · Oct 1, 2011

There is A difference

DocWalker said:
It could affect people differently like most drugs. Some people are angry drunks while others just want to be friends. Same goes for people that take drugs or yes even smoke marijuana. Some get paranoia while some get other effects, it isn't just the munchies. After you work 23 years picking people up on the side of the road or treating them for overdoses lets see how harmless you feel drugs are. I have seen kids get calm and mellow from drinking mountain dew but for most the caffine gives them a lift.

Do I feel there is a place and time for drugs, YES

Do I feel you should be putting other people at risk while high, NO

The term high can refer to any drug to include alcohol. I used it as in the effect your mind has been altered by a outside agent. And yes I have seen people that were high on marijuana kill and have been killed while driving, I just say lets not give them a gun also, maybe we can have more dead people. Let everyone do what they want, kill who they want and nobody will ever be held accountable. I don't think that would be a great utopia and the effects of marijuana are not harmless like advocates say.

If you want to smoke the wacky weed then go for it just don't hit the road with a loaded firearm and expect nothing to happen, and if it does the person should be put on their knees and get a enternal dirt nap.

They aren't saying you cant carry while high what they are saying is you can't own A firearm "AT ALL" big f*&#*ng difference. They are just yanking our rights rights right out from under us. At the rate our government is going we will all be saying zieg hiel before long. I love my country its the damn government i'm afraid of..

Difdi · Oct 1, 2011

1911er said:
They aren't saying you cant carry while high what they are saying is you can't own A firearm "AT ALL" big f*&#*ng difference. They are just yanking our rights rights right out from under us. At the rate our government is going we will all be saying zieg hiel before long. I love my country its the damn government i'm afraid of..

And it's worse than even that. The BATF's position is that you cannot own a gun while using controlled substances. People assume the term "controlled substances" refers to illegal drugs, but it's not true. The thing is, Advil is a controlled substance, going by the strict letter of the law. Don't believe me? When was the last time you saw 1000mg ibuprofen tablets? Anything that requires a prescription is a controlled substance, even if you can get it without a prescription in low doses.

How do you define an addiction? I know a guy who pops a couple Advil tablets in the morning to deal with muscle aches. He does this every morning. He's habitually using a controlled substance, by the letter of the law, even though the medication he uses is over-the-counter in the dosage level he buys.

amlevin · Oct 1, 2011

NavyLCDR said:
Here's a novel idea. How about if we make it illegal and a crime to perform a negligent ACTION with a firearm? How about adding a bonus sentence enhancement if that negligent ACTION is performed under the influence of a drug or alcohol? There are millions of people out there who could smoke a joint or have a few beers and leave the gun in the holster. A person should not be denied the right to CARRY a firearm only because they are under the influence of a drug (and alcohol is a drug, by the way). That is like making it illegal to keep your car keys in your pocket when drinking or whatever. Leave the OBJECT alone and punish behavior.

A great point but I don't think Society will accept it any time soon. In their mind any negligent action with a firearm, brought about by an "altered mental state" be it from alcohol or any drug, usually results in a tragedy. Prevention, right or wrong, is still high on the list for most in today's society.

Until there is an overall shift in the "preventive medicine" approach to laws, with more focus on severe penalties for negligent actions, we won't see much progress. People who drink, drive, get arrested, and pay huge fines, still go out an drink, drive, etc. Taking away their cars will, in the eyes of some, will stop that "chain".

As for guns, if my memory serves, isn't it already illegal and a crime to perform a negligent act with a firearm? Aren't there enhancements for using a firearm in the commission of several crimes? The issue isn't in the laws, it's in the enforcement and application of penalty by the Courts.

Until society becomes more interested in punishing people in a meaningful manner for the crimes they commit, then the focus will remain on what you call the "Object".

As a country we need to adopt more the "Sheriff Joe Arpaio Philosophy". If the Courts sentence them he provides the jail space. Even if he has to put up more tents and chain link fence.

waterfowl woody · Oct 1, 2011

The GATEWAY drug. if you use M.J. you WILL use all of the other drugs, excuse me ABUSE all other drugs just because of M.J. haha really. This goes all the way back to Dupont and twine. I have lived in Washington for awhile and I do not know if I have ever heard of someone killing or hurting someone because they were high on M.J. I have heard of them hurting someone because of dealer wars but not while on it.
Here is a law that should be passed.

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Not all government officials are anti-gun and we do not allow bashing of over-generalized groups.

I know that doctor guy will respond but were people that come in to er's just on pot or other substances in there system, I am going with a "cocktail" of stuff in there system. Drugs are like guns as if you are not responsible with them they can kill. If people hurt people high or not they should be held responsible.......

Batousaii · Oct 1, 2011

... Define LIBERTY & FREEDOM.

I am 100% on board with being held responsible for "Action". I do NOT believe in punishing people for "potential behavior" or how they make me feel.
If a guy is intoxicated by whatever means or substance, does he automatically loose his liberty and freedom? Please remind me what country we are supposed to live in here.

- Oh? Intoxicants make a poor image, or has "potential" to become trouble? Maybe it makes people nervous or uncomfortable because they don't know what that guy is capable of?? - Don't they say the EXACT same thing about US as open carriers? But our heads are "clear" right? - Have you actually read some of the threads here on this (or other) forums? What kinda clear head are we talking about.

- There are some straight-n-sober people that i would trust less with a gun, than some peeps that I know can hold their liquor and behave just fine, responsible and predictable. I presume it would be same for them if other intoxicants were legal too.... it's about the person and their actions, not the intoxicant, or the weapon.

- The only absolute freedom, is one that can be achieved by by allowing people to do as they desire, without hurting or infringing upon the rights or liberties of others...
~ There for, my personal conclusion is that punishing aberrant action should be the primary goal of a given law.

If we allow laws to be built on our personal feelings and reaction to conceptual beliefs, then we are no better than the anti-gun communities that thrive on that exact formula...... end result: we could make it illegal to make someone uncomfortable by what ever means, and there you have just allowed the government total control of your life.

Sit quietly for a minute... Let go of your feelings... then ask yourself... "What is liberty and freedom" ... Define it carefully.... Then re-read this thread.

- Do you believe in freedom and liberty .... do yo REALLY believe in it?

(nothing here is meant to be insulting -- just trying to jar some thought loose and get peeps to think)

:dude: Bat.

P.S. To the best of my historical recolection, Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence on hemp paper.

Difdi · Oct 1, 2011

waterfowl woody said:
The GATEWAY drug. if you use M.J. you WILL use all of the other drugs, excuse me ABUSE all other drugs just because of M.J. haha really. This goes all the way back to Dupont and twine. I have lived in Washington for awhile and I do not know if I have ever heard of someone killing or hurting someone because they were high on M.J. I have heard of them hurting someone because of dealer wars but not while on it.

Marijuana is considered a gateway drug, because it gets you used to the idea of putting a burning object in your mouth and inhaling odd-smelling smoke to generate an altered mental or physiological state. The thing is, tobacco is also a gateway drug, for exactly the same reasons.

Anyone who talks about marijuana being bad because it's a gateway drug, who is also a tobacco addict, is either a hypocrite or totally missing the point.

Dave_pro2a · Oct 2, 2011

"Gateway drug" is a made up term to manipulate the masses. It is meaningless.

MilProGuy · Oct 2, 2011

Dave_pro2a said:
"Gateway drug" is a made up term to manipulate the masses. It is meaningless.

...unless a person has opened that gate and gone through it.

Dave_pro2a · Oct 2, 2011

MilProGuy said:
...unless a person has opened that gate and gone through it.

Then blame soda pop, coffee, tobacco, and alcohol for opening the gate. You know, the drugs that most people try first.

ATF - Illegal to sell guns to marijuana card holders

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