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Thread: Cop makes $1 million bail....

  1. #1
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Cop makes $1 million bail....

    Beware of the Beast Within..... Under God one Nation will be returned to its Foundation!

  2. #2
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    He is just as guilty, even if we take the "serve and protect" out of the picture since they have no obligation to serve and protect. He willingly stood by and and showed his support for others who murdered and broke several other laws. Ah but they were his brothers in law enforcement, so I guess it was ok. .
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    And everybody is missing the point about bail - it is used to ensure the charged person's appearance in court. It should never be used as a means of punishment. Quite frankly, based on the very little I know about the charged persons I do not see any real indicators of flight risk or liklihood that they would refuse tro appear when the court asks them to. As such, $1Million seems excessive bail.

    Nothing above should be construed as a statement of any sort regarding how I view the probable guilt or innocence of the charged individual.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  4. #4
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    And everybody is missing the point about bail - it is used to ensure the charged person's appearance in court. It should never be used as a means of punishment. Quite frankly, based on the very little I know about the charged persons I do not see any real indicators of flight risk or liklihood that they would refuse tro appear when the court asks them to. As such, $1Million seems excessive bail.

    Nothing above should be construed as a statement of any sort regarding how I view the probable guilt or innocence of the charged individual.

    stay safe.
    Sometimes I think Skidmark is one of the few level-headed, informed persons here. Not only does he have a good acquaintance with the law, he is also FAIR-MINDED and is guided by the principles. It would behoove us to follow his example, and eschew the blood-lust talk (that, while understandable, not helpful to anyone). It's hard not to run and light the pitch-forks and wield the torches, but in doing so we become part of the 'mob' justice we are trying to denounce.

    It is those who are -accused- of the most heinous crimes that must have the most equal protection (lest we make a mistake among other things). I think even Judges miss his point above (or do so in catering to over-zealous prosecutors).

    $.02
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 09-30-2011 at 02:22 PM.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Sometimes I think Skidmark is one of the few level-headed, informed persons here. Not only does he have a good acquaintance with the law, he is also FAIR-MINDED and is guided by the principles. It would behoove us to follow his example, and eschew the blood-lust talk (that, while understandable, not helpful to anyone). It's hard not to run and light the pitch-forks and wield the torches, but in doing so we become part of the 'mob' justice we are trying to denounce.

    It is those who are -accused- of the most heinous crimes that must have the most equal protection (lest we make a mistake among other things). I think even Judges miss his point above (or do so in catering to over-zealous prosecutors).

    $.02
    Light the pitchforks, huh?

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Light the pitchforks, huh?
    Yup! Then we sharpen the torches and kick the tires.

    Seriously, we need to follow proper procedure or all we'll have in anarchy and chaos. What? They're both here already? OK, nevermind.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    I quite agree with your kind remarks about skidmark.

    A person with the qualities you enumerated is an asset to this forum, and to his community.
    We do need posters like him to keep us grounded in reality.

    NOW, who wants to go kill something(*)? Woo-hoo.


    (*) how about a rare hamburge, lol.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  8. #8
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    And everybody is missing the point about bail - it is used to ensure the charged person's appearance in court. It should never be used as a means of punishment. Quite frankly, based on the very little I know about the charged persons I do not see any real indicators of flight risk or liklihood that they would refuse tro appear when the court asks them to. As such, $1Million seems excessive bail.

    Nothing above should be construed as a statement of any sort regarding how I view the probable guilt or innocence of the charged individual.

    stay safe.

    Excellent point Skidmark. Not only in the case of this officer but in all cases. Many people spend time in jail or are penalized for a crime before "due process" can take place.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    What bail?

    So, we wish to have public servants to now be held to the same standard(s) as "civilians"? Interesting.
    I was also wondering how he maid bail, since we here so often how underpaid they are.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
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    $1 million Bail??? Dang!!!
    How bout NO Bail.....
    Last edited by MR Redenck; 10-02-2011 at 05:43 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    And everybody is missing the point...

    No. We are not.

    He is a cop who *allegedly* beat an innocent and very helpless man to death without hesitation in front of the entire world.

    $100,000 and he is out of jail to walk the streets. To feel the sun on his face. To get paid to not work. He had absolutely no problem coming up with the cash to get out...



    So how exactly is the bail excessive or a punishment again?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 10-02-2011 at 07:36 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
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    Regular Member tcmech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    No. We are not.

    He is a cop who beat an innocent and very helpless man to death without hesitation in front of the entire world.

    $100,000 and he is out of jail to walk the streets. To feel the sun on his face. To get paid to not work. He had absolutely no problem coming up with the cash to get out...



    So how exactly is the bail excessive or a punishment again?
    Allegedly beat an innocent and very helpless man to death is the proper statement.

    I will not go into the disgust I feel with the events that happened here or the fact that the accused is walking the streets freely, but with that being said under our justice system we are all innocent till proven guilty in a court of law. I know that may not always seem the case, especially to those who are wrongly accused.
    If Obama is the answer; how stupid was the question?

  13. #13
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Corrected.


    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 10-02-2011 at 07:39 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  14. #14
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Corrected.
    Supervisor: "What happened to him?"

    Cop "He fell....down a flight of stairs....twice. He was also resisting."
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  15. #15
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Cop: " I was in fear for my life. I have a right to officer safety."
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I was pretty sure that I made a statement that my comment above about bail was NOT to be considered related to whether the cop was guilty or innocent, but I went back to make sure. Yep, there it was:
    Nothing above should be construed as a statement of any sort regarding how I view the probable guilt or innocence of the charged individual.
    And sure as the sun rises most days, folks come around sharing their determination that the cop is in fact guilty as sin of one of the most evil, sinful acts he ever committed and thus his walking around in the sunlight while the guy they are sure he caused to be dead never gets to walk around even in the rain is an even bigger sin than what the cop committed. And a sub-group is all butt-hurt that the cop apparently was able to raise the funds necessary to get a bond so he could get out of jail while he waits for his trial.

    For those that already got the point, this is the time to go get a snack or finish mowing the lawn or whatever you want to do instead of sloggng through me repeating my rant. For the rest of you, please pay attention because repeating myself is repetitious.

    Folks need to be held in jail if there is reason to believe they a) are more likely than not to not bother showing up when their scheduled trial starts, or b) that they are more likely than not to continue committing the crime they are charged with, or in the case of something like killing people that they will more likely than not go and kill other people while we are all waiting for the first day of their trial.

    There is nothing that allows folks to be held pre-trial as a form of punishment. The 8th Amendment settled that a few hundred years ago. For those that really do not inderstand the concept, that is why all the time spent in pre-trial confinement counts towards fulfilling any sentence of confinement handed down at sentencing, and why some criminals are let go right after their sentencing - they were held long enough pre-trial to have actually satisfied whatever sentence was handed down.

    I'm not absolutely certain that some amongst you would not lynch this cop if given the smallest opportunity. I am fairly convinced that a few among you would lynch him even if it meant risking some physical harm to you.

    And that scares me.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  17. #17
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Butt hurt?

    You made a statement. Your opinion. I don't agree. My opinion.

    If bail was so excessive how could he be walking around? Just making a point. Isn't bail set by a judge based on each individual circumstance? In this case circumstances backed up by multiple videos?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  18. #18
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Cop: " I was in fear for my life. I have a right to officer safety."
    Thats the catch all.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Butt hurt?

    You made a statement. Your opinion. I don't agree. My opinion.

    If bail was so excessive how could he be walking around? Just making a point. Isn't bail set by a judge based on each individual circumstance? In this case circumstances backed up by multiple videos?
    1) If the phrase "butt-hurt" bothers you, think about why. I'll do the same and consider if it might have been inappropriate.

    2) Do you still not understand the purpose of bail? Show me how much of a flight risk this guy is. Or why there is good reason to believe he will not otherwise show up for trial. Or explain how you believe he will commit other similar crimes as the one he is charged with.

    Yes, bail is set based on each individual's circumstances. Circumstances related to whether or not they will show up for trial or continue their criminal action. There is a history of not allowing bail for first degree murder, based on the thought that if you have intentionally murdered once you might intentionally murder again. But this guy is not charged with first degree murder.
    A Fullerton, California, police officer charged with second-degree murder
    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...0&file=187-199

    189. All murder which is perpetrated by means of a destructive
    device or explosive, a weapon of mass destruction, knowing use of
    ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison,
    lying in wait, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate,
    and premeditated killing, or which is committed in the perpetration
    of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery,
    burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable
    under Section 206, 286, 288, 288a, or 289, or any murder which is
    perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle,
    intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the
    intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree. All other
    kinds of murders are of the second degree.
    If he's not likely to be a no-show, or to continue to commit the crime (not possible since he's charged with killing somebody) or commit another similar crime (not likely as he's been stripped of his LEO status so won't be beating someone for resisting arrest) then the imposition of $1 Million bail seems to be political posturing and theater. You explain to me why it is not.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I personally agree with what you are saying Skidmark. I think what bothers many is that if they as private individuals were arrested and held on a million dollar bail they know they would unfairly languish in jail were some how this individual as a cop was able to come up with the cash.

    I think it is wrong to hold people before a trial, also very wrong to freeze assets, before a trial too. This often denies people the ability to provide for a stronger defense.

    The video is pretty damning evidence though I also wonder how they are going to choose an impartial jury.

    On a side note though, rights belong to the people not to government and their minions and people who choose to work for the government should be held to a higher standard.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    1) If the phrase "butt-hurt" bothers you, think about why. I'll do the same and consider if it might have been inappropriate.
    As an admittedly crass individual, and with respect, I have no problem with the term itself. I just think it's funny you use it as a weapon against those who do not agree with you in this particular thread. That's all. You get to second guess the Judge butt we don't get to second guess your opinion...

    2) Do you still not understand the purpose of bail? Show me how much of a flight risk this guy is. Or why there is good reason to believe he will not otherwise show up for trial. Or explain how you believe he will commit other similar crimes as the one he is charged with.
    Crystal clear. For instance you know that his profession, past, the crime he committed, the way he committed the crime are also factors in his bail.

    Yes, bail is set based on each individual's circumstances. Circumstances related to whether or not they will show up for trial or continue their criminal action.
    His profession, past, the crime he committed, the way he committed the crime are also factors in his bail. The nature and seriousness of the crime committed...

    If he's not likely to be a no-show, or to continue to commit the crime (not possible since he's charged with killing somebody) or commit another similar crime (not likely as he's been stripped of his LEO status so won't be beating someone for resisting arrest) then the imposition of $1 Million bail seems to be political posturing and theater. You explain to me why it is not.

    stay safe.
    There is more to it than what you keep posting. It is that simple.

    And most likely there is political posturing and theater involved. Those who have been following this murder know that the police or local government refused to take ANY action for WEEKS after Kelly Thomas was taken off life support. Fullerton was forced to start an investigation only after multiple protests and protesters that would not go away. After the photo of the beaten by police victim's face went viral. After the posting of the two (so far) videos to youtube of the murder, local bloggers conducting their own investigation of witnesses and posting the interviews to Youtube, the interviews of an inside source on a local radio show that proved to be 100% credible, and the continued efforts of the victim's retired cop father... So are there a few politicians scrambling now? Absolutely. Especially since recall papers were filed on three of them, including the Mayor.

    informant:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDGGV7kjH-c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yo4i...eature=related

    independent interviews of witnesses:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_hiv...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKgpb...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0hEg...eature=related

    (interview of citizen who was forced to hand over film to cops at scene)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Jo-...eature=related


    pissed off locals:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjrgG...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DunlF...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5BQU...eature=related



    recall announcement:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Jp8...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_k-hQ_2fFA




    The smoking gun:


    The quality of this video system is reportedly so good the blood spatters from Kelly Thomas can be seen flying around as he is beaten to death by Fullerton police.

    "Here's a demonstration of the surveillance camera that captured the police beating of Kelly Thomas on July 5, 2011. The footage shows off the low-light and zoom capabilities of the Pelco Spectra IV cameras that are installed throughout downtown Fullerton."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG983...eature=related



    Bloodthirsty villagers sharpening pitchforks??? Lynch mob?

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    I'm not absolutely certain that some amongst you would not lynch this cop if given the smallest opportunity. I am fairly convinced that a few among you would lynch him even if it meant risking some physical harm to you.

    And that scares me.


    Hardly.

    More like pissed off and very informed citizens who are sick of their employees committing murder and trying to cover it up.

    Kelly Thomas died of asphyxia, report says

    By DENISSE SALAZAR / THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER

    SANTA ANA – Mentally ill transient Kelly Thomas died of asphyxia caused during a beating at the hands of Fullerton police officers at the Transportation Center in July, District Attorney Tony Rackauckas said Wednesday during a news conference at his office.

    The coroner's death certificate lists the manner of death as homicide and the cause of death as asphyxia caused by "mechanical chest compression with blunt cranial-facial injuries sustained during physical altercation with law enforcement."

    The district attorney said Thomas died because of the force of the officers on his chest, which made it impossible to breathe. Thomas fell unconscious, then slipped into a coma and died when taken off of life support five days later. The injuries to his face and his head, Rackauckas said, contributed to his death.

    Also contributing to his death were brain injuries, facial and rib fractures, and the extensive bruising and abrasions he suffered during the beating, which left him lying in a "growing pool of blood," Rackauckas said.

    The toxicology report shows that Thomas had no illicit drugs or alcohol in his system.

    http://www.ocregister.com/news/thoma...at:227|order:1
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 10-03-2011 at 01:46 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  22. #22
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Political, you bet. Then again why not released on his own recognizance? He is a LEO, above reproach, so to speak. The ‘bond’ can be easily posted if it secured with collateral, like a home or several vehicles. Or maybe confiscated drug money from the evidence locker....

    Bail is not bond. A bond is somebody else's money, bail is typically understood to be 'your' money, cash money. The judge should have set a cash only bail, no bond. Let the LEO(s) start building up some time served like most folks do when it is one of the vast unwashed masses who face similar charges.

    Lets keep our eye on the news and see how this all plays out.
    Yes, bond (surety bond) is generally someone else's money (bail enforcement agent) who then receives CUSTODY of the defendant from the Sheriff, of which, even out on bond, the defendant is still considered to be in the custody of the Sheriff. I violated many of my bail (defendant) right back into the Sheriff's pokey for them getting another criminal charge, whether it was a misdemeanor or a felony. It varys from state to state, but as a Bail Agent, I had state law behind ANY restrictions I placed on my bail. Finding someone drinking in a bar was enough for me to revoke. Once bail is revoked, in this small town, none of the other bail agents would touch them until after their next court hearing (not the one to revoke.)

    Or, you can post your own surety bond in the form of property if your equity in the property is enough to cover (OK: 1.5x the bail amount, not the bond amount) and there are no other attachments (such as a wife and kids at home as this state does not allow you to mortgage the "homestead" as surety bond.)

    So, out on bail is not "free to go do whatever." Most bail agents also require regular contact with bail either in person or via phone call (probably this for the officer.) Also, the bail cannot leave the jurisdiction of the court they are out on bail from without permission/knowledge of the bail agent ... so some of my bail that worked on oil rigs in another county had to call me at the end of every shift to let me know they were back in the county.

    I only had two actually jump bail on me ... one I had picked up in another state, one I went and picked up myself after getting the Sheriff to go "stir things up" for me LOL It was great when, 3 months later, a young deputy used the same tactics to grab him on a Federal Bench Warrant.

    That is not to say I didn't have my share of deadbeats who simply would not show up for court and think I wouldn't come get them! They were DRUG ADDICTS and there are only a few areas where they can operate in this small town, and I know them all, and I know their routines. I mean, come on folks, if you want a 64oz pop at 2am, there is only 3 places in town, and only one with a driveup. All I had to do was tuck back in a dark spot on Tuesday or Thursday night (that's when the crack was done cooking and distributed) and wait for them to cruize thru, or cruize through the 2 hotels in town where they would rent rooms for dealing LOL
    cheers - okboomer
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  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Sometimes I think Skidmark is one of the few level-headed, informed persons here. Not only does he have a good acquaintance with the law, he is also FAIR-MINDED and is guided by the principles.
    +1
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