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Thread: Van Hollen responds, "Why can't DoJ come up with training rules?"

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Van Hollen responds, "Why can't DoJ come up with training rules?"

    http://www.postcrescent.com/article/...t-move-faster?
    Quote Originally Posted by Van Hollen
    Had you contacted us before publishing your piece, we would have been happy to provide you an answer.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Egg on face and foot in mouth... Appleton Post-Crescent Haz it...

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    If the fools would have passed Constitutional Carry as written, there would have been no need for any of this. Then again, who is more the fool...the fool, or the fool who follows him? The fools know who they are, or they would were they not so foolish.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    If the fools would have passed Constitutional Carry as written, there would have been no need for any of this. Then again, who is more the fool...the fool, or the fool who follows him? The fools know who they are, or they would were they not so foolish.
    Often fools don't know they are fools.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    The rulemaking process and its built-in delays are designed to ensure deliberation and public transparency.
    public transparency??? Does that mean we can see right through it?

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Often fools don't know they are fools.
    "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    public transparency??? Does that mean we can see right through it?
    Indeed. See right through the facade to the large pile of excrement that it really is.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheller View Post
    like me who are extremely pleased with the current law.
    Back for more I see log-in-pants, how's the posse doin'
    Wisconsin Carry Member
    My Castle Doctrine Law

    Don't wish ill upon your enemy......plan it.

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    <teeth gnashing>

    DOJ can only publish the rules on the 1rst or the 15th of the month. It didn't make 10/1, so the rules will be published 10/15 or 11/1 (or maybe 12/15, or 2/1/12, or........<sigh>).

    If the rules require any revision to certifications already issued, etc. it's going to be a scramble.

    I don't think DOJ is deliberately trying to obstruct Act 35. Everything they've said, though, implies that this is all a monumental PITA that's been dumped on their poor overworked state-paid a**es. There's not a word recognizing the importance of acting swiftly, mentioning avoiding causing pre-November 1 chaos, etc.

    Politically, I think Van Hollen is missing an opportunity to seen as a supporter of a new law that affects a heck of a lot more people in Wisconsin than the lawbreakers, LEOs and lawyers DOJ usually dances with.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheller View Post
    .. It does a disservice to gun toters like me who are extremely pleased with the current law.
    The article does the disservice? Current law being pre-Act35 or are you extremely pleased with Act 35??

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    If the rules require any revision to certifications already issued, etc. it's going to be a scramble...
    This has happened in other States. All they did in those cases was add a sticker with additional info instead of publishing new certificates.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheller View Post
    Extremely pleased with Act 35.
    sure you are trollables
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    I had talked to the DOJ a couple of weeks ago and just from that conversation, THEY ARE CLUELESS. I do have the feelin we will get crapped on in the end.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias
    Often fools don't know they are fools.
    Last night I had quite a long conversation w/ my information source, & from what he said of their attitude, this fits 100%. They don't even admit they need help.

    Quote Originally Posted by labomba
    If the rules require any revision to certifications already issued, etc. it's going to be a scramble.
    As IK pointed out, instructors can issue stickers with any 'required' wording.
    I still think it'd be simpler to teach the people processing the applications what the law says is acceptable.

    I don't think DOJ is deliberately trying to obstruct Act 35.
    I do.
    Their law specialists (lawyers) don't seem to be able to read the plain English of the law as well as we normal people can.
    They seem determined to make implementation of this law as difficult & costly as possible for the citizens of WI.

    The latest thing I'm told they're going to try to require are a photo & fingerprints.
    The law says they can't*,
    the law doesn't say those are required**,
    but they'll try.


    * 175.60(2)(b)
    The department may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content of a license.

    ** 175.60(2)(m)(b)
    A license document for a license issued under this section shall contain all of the following on one side:
    1. The full name, date of birth, and residence address of the licensee.
    2. A physical description of the licensee, including sex, height, and eye color.
    3. The date on which the license was issued.
    4. The date on which the license expires.
    5. The name of this state.
    6. A unique identification number for each licensee

    ** 175.60(5)(a)
    The forms shall require the applicant to provide only his or her name, address, date of birth, state identification card number, race, sex, height, and eye color...
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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  15. #15
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Note also, 2011 Act 35 Section 38, creating 175.60(2)

    ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE. (a) The department shall issue a license to carry a concealed weapon to
    any individual who is not disqualified under sub. (3) and who completes the application process specified in sub.(7).

    (7) SUBMISSION OF APPLICATION. An individual may apply for a license under this section with the department
    by submitting, by mail or other means made available by the department, to the department all of the following:
    (a) A completed application in the form prescribed under sub. (5) (a).
    (b) A statement that states that the information that he or she is providing in the application submitted under
    par. (a) and any document submitted with the application is true and complete to the best of his or her knowledge.
    (c) A license fee in an amount, as determined by the department by rule, that is equal to the cost of issuing the
    license but does not exceed $37. The department shall determine the costs of issuing a license by using a 5−year planning period.
    (d) A fee for a background check that is equal to the fee charged under s. 175.35 (2i).
    (e) Proof of training as described under sub. (4) (a).

    There is no mention of fingerprints or photograph, both of which are entre to extended databases precluded/avoided by 175.60(2m)(c) prohibiting requiring SSN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post

    As IK pointed out, instructors can issue stickers with any 'required' wording.
    Thanks, but I don't take much comfort from a lame sticker workaround. If the rule's published 10/15 instructors would have 11 business days to analyze the new requirement, prepare stickers and instructions, and get out a mailing to every student in time to be received 11/1..... And that's IF DOJ even made it clear on the 15th that modifying original certificates with stickers would be allowable. Issuing new certificates would probably be simpler.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoinarien View Post
    And it's exactly because of people like this that I wonder why I bother. And it's exactly because of people like this, who DO dump on the knowledgeable people why many knowledgeable people stay away.
    Word.




    You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

    We are lucky to have a DOJ that is soooooooooooooo devoted to our best interests they work till their fingers bleed.

    Mark my words. When we (finally) get our permits to exercise our Constitutional Right, in about a year and a half if we are lucky, they will be the B-E-S-T permission slips money can buy.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    ...... And that's IF DOJ even made it clear on the 15th that modifying original certificates with stickers would be allowable. Issuing new certificates would probably be simpler.
    Just taking a Hunter Safety Course sometime from May until now would have been simpler...


    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Mark my words. When we (finally) get our permits to exercise our Constitutional Right, in about a year and a half if we are lucky, they will be the B-E-S-T permission slips money can buy.
    I will have one by December 19th and likely sooner....
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-02-2011 at 05:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Just taking a Hunter Safety Course sometime from May until now would have been simpler...
    What a fantastic option that is for those interested in hunting....And what an utter insult to suggest that anyone not interested in hunting devote 10-plus hours (the DNR minimum) to a course that covers "field care of harvested game" etc. etc.

    People who sought out courses more specific to handguns shouldn't be penalized for having made that investment. There's no way the course they took could be any LESS relevant to CCW than DNR's hunter safety course. Just sayin'!

    EDITED TO ADD: THE ABOVE IS NOT INTENDED IN ANYWAY TO DISRESPECT HUNTING OR DNR'S EXCELLENT SAFETY COURSE. "FIELD CARE OF HARVESTED GAME" IS SIMPLY PROVIDED AS AN EXAMPLE OF THE MANY HUNTER SAFETY COURSE TOPICS MANDATED BY DNR THAT ARE NOT RELEVANT TO PEOPLE TAKING COURSES IN ORDER TO OBTAIN A CCP.
    Last edited by LaBomba; 10-02-2011 at 08:25 PM. Reason: Assisting the comprehension-impaired among us.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    What a fantastic option that is for those interested in hunting....And what an utter insult to suggest that anyone not interested in hunting devote 10-plus hours (the DNR minimum) to a course that covers "field care of harvested game" etc. etc.

    People who sought out courses more specific to handguns shouldn't be penalized for having made that investment. There's no way the course they took could be any LESS relevant to CCW than DNR's hunter safety course. Just sayin'!
    It's all about priorities and planning ahead. The option was available and few took advantage of it. Also, there was planty of time to get a MN/UT/FL Carry Permit which is valid proof of training. I guarantee if you took/take an AACFI course that you will have a certificate ready to go on November 1st. Anyone who was looking ahead would have thought about getting training the moment Walker was elected as it was pretty obvious we were getting a permit system with a GOP majority. Nobody is being penalized. Lack of planning on your part is not an emergency on the part of the DOJ...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    What a fantastic option that is for those interested in hunting....And what an utter insult to suggest that anyone not interested in hunting devote 10-plus hours (the DNR minimum) to a course that covers "field care of harvested game" etc. etc.

    People who sought out courses more specific to handguns shouldn't be penalized for having made that investment. There's no way the course they took could be any LESS relevant to CCW than DNR's hunter safety course. Just sayin'!

    Hey...nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head, and forcing them to take Hunters Safety; now are they???
    Or maybe your just mad because there's no "field care of sniveling Anti-hunters" ???
    Attachment 7024
    Bale da Hay

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    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    It's all about priorities and planning ahead...... Lack of planning on your part is not an emergency on the part of the DOJ...
    More like, "Lack of access to your constitutional rights is not an emergency on the part of the DOJ."

    Is that really okay with you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurchiron View Post
    Hey...nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head, and forcing them to take Hunters Safety; now are they???
    Or maybe your just mad because there's no "field care of sniveling Anti-hunters" ???
    Attachment 7024
    Now that's ridiculous. I said nothing against hunting and have nothing against hunting. But I wouldn't suggest that in order to get a hunting license hunters should sit through CCP classes.
    Last edited by LaBomba; 10-02-2011 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Certainty that Lurchiron wouldn't understand my snarky comment anyway.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    What a fantastic option that is for those interested in hunting....And what an utter insult to suggest that anyone not interested in hunting devote 10-plus hours (the DNR minimum) to a course that covers "field care of harvested game" etc. etc.
    I suppose you're not interested in the military small arms training option either...
    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    More like, "Lack of access to your constitutional rights is not an emergency on the part of the DOJ."

    Is that really okay with you?
    I believe you are over-stating the crisis. Any trainer worth his/her salt will have a certificate for you on or before November 1st...
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-02-2011 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I believe you are over-stating the crisis. Any trainer worth his/her salt will have a certificate for you on or before November 1st...
    I'm sure you're right. I resent a system where DOJ takes 4-5 months to issue a rule that leaves other people 2 weeks to comply. Rumors have been leaking for weeks. If they turn out to be true, DOJ could have issued that portion of the rule a month ago and followed up later with the other pieces of the rule that won't entail people revising certificates etc.

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