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Thread: Open Carry while getting hair cut

  1. #1
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    Open Carry while getting hair cut

    please delete thread
    Last edited by aepfelsauce; 01-15-2012 at 09:04 AM.

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    Regular Member Glock214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    Would it be considered concealed when they put the apron on you? I was thinking I could just make sure the apron doesn't cover the gun from the side, like hold the edge on the chair arm so someone standing next to me could still see the whole handgun from the side.



    Also in regards to traveling by bicycle to the place :

    Welcome to OC aepfelsauce,

    the way I understand it is even on a bike you can run into trouble w/out cpl if OC'ing. And as far as getting your hair cut you pistol would have to remain in plain view to be considered OC, if covered would be concealed. I'm sure others will comment as well, I am fairly new to the OC movement as well, waiting on my CPL right now. Carry On!!

    Glock214

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    Welcome

    Yes, it would be considered concealed carry. CC for short.

    Same thing with a bicycle. It would probably have to go through court, that would be drawn out a couple years, and very expensive. My position, as well as a couple LEOs (law enforcement officers) that I have spoken with, is that if you can be charged with a DUI on a bike, you could be charged with a CCW as well.

    I hope you're planning on getting a CPL, it makes life a lot easier. Meanwhile, read the stickies, and bookmark the following links.

    Get a digital voice recorder with USB, and keep it on always.


    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    http://www.migunowners.org/pub/OpenC...ideProject.pdf

    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...aspx?page=home

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-234d

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-231a

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    Would it be considered concealed when they put the apron on you? I was thinking I could just make sure the apron doesn't cover the gun from the side, like hold the edge on the chair arm so someone standing next to me could still see the whole handgun from the side.



    Also in regards to traveling by bicycle to the place :
    1. Yes, putting the apron over the firearm would be concealed. See link to the law below.
    2. The law you reference concerns firearms that are not pistols (firearms over 30" in length) It would be nice if the law concerning the crime of carrying a concealed pistol also said "motor vehicles" rather than just "vehicles", then we would have some clarity regarding the bicycle issue. Venator posted a letter he received from the state police regarding carry on a motorcycle and has posted it on OCDO; the MSP said that in order to violate the law posted below, the firearm needs to be "in" a vehicle rather than "on" a vehicle. They did acknowledge that other PDs might not be so understanding.
    see http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-01-2011 at 04:17 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    I believe the msp site said concealed was 'not visible to a casual observer'

    So pretty much anytime sitting down, such as at a restaurant table, or leaning against a wall sideways would not be visible and possibly 'concealed'.
    As stated you could be charged with anything. My opinion is that sitting at a table or against a wall would be pretty hard to get a charge of CCW. Let's take it a bit farther. If you are just standing weak side to someone, is the gun concealed? what if it's dark out, is the gun concealed? I would argue no.

    Now should someone without a CPL walk down the street constantly spinning around quickly so the gun is always in view? Should they never OC at night? Or just on nights with a full moon? Where does it end?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    If you do, you may not be able to own a gun, or get a CPL.


    EVER.

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    Well no one knows for sure, yet.


    I believe using marijuana while carrying/shooting will get your gun taken away faster, stainless.

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    They are both going to wind up in appeals court, or higher.

    I just dont want to see you lose your rights over something that shouldnt be illegal to begin with.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-01-2011 at 08:23 PM.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    It never ends.

    I think life is too short to ruminate over what society might not deem as being "okay" or "technically legal". I am just going to go live my life. And I'm going to open carry on my bicycle until I get a cpl


    Edit: Just so you know, I'm not planning on doing anything I know to be illegal. Just carrying on my bicycle.
    Just so you know, you are volunteering to be the Test Case for resolving this "Gray Area". I sure hope you have "Deep Pockets" and are willing to put your Firearm Rights in danger, if not you may want to reconsider.

    The wisest people I know on multiple forums say to stay FAR AWAY from this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post




    You're welcome
    Yes, carry the MSP it can help if you pick your timing correctly.


    If you are truly serious about taking this to court, there are many who will support you. I truly wish you the best as I dont want to see any bad come into your life. If you can do this, and come out on top, you have my personal, and our collective gratitude.

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    Well we have the okay from the MSP, maybe I could carry a copy of what they wrote with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post




    You're welcome
    Keep in mind the MSP opinion has no weight in law. It is only "binding" with the MSP staff. Other departments are free to have different policies and opinions.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    As stated you could be charged with anything. My opinion is that sitting at a table or against a wall would be pretty hard to get a charge of CCW. Let's take it a bit farther. If you are just standing weak side to someone, is the gun concealed? what if it's dark out, is the gun concealed? I would argue no.

    Now should someone without a CPL walk down the street constantly spinning around quickly so the gun is always in view? Should they never OC at night? Or just on nights with a full moon? Where does it end?
    Easily done all you need is roller skates and a dog or 2. Also having a funny hat couldn't hurt at all!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    And if the Barber who owns the place said it's okay to carry on his property then I would think there wouldn't be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Easily done all you need is roller skates and a dog or 2. Also having a funny hat couldn't hurt at all!

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
    And if the Barber who owns the place said it's okay to carry on his property then I would think there wouldn't be an issue.
    You or the Barber can conceal carry on YOUR/THEIR OWN property!
    But You Nor your Barber may give permission for another to conceal carry on your/their property!

    I can conceal carry on my property, but
    the law does not recognize my permission for YOU to conceal carry on my property.

    You would expect that my permission to you would be binding, but the law could make the case against it!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    [RIGHT]

    Keep in mind the MSP opinion has no weight in law. It is only "binding" with the MSP staff. Other departments are free to have different policies and opinions.
    If one relied upon the writings of the MSP, and by doing so you were induced to commit some act which could be determined to be illegal, one could aver the defense of "equitable estoppel". So, although not truly a "precedent" upon which someone can rely with no worry of being issued a citation, the MSP legal update could be used to successfully defend charges for doing as the MSP Legal Update instructed. It all depends...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    If so then we have lost this country when we have no property rights, and no right to "bear" arms.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    You or the Barber can conceal carry on YOUR/THEIR OWN property!
    But You Nor your Barber may give permission for another to conceal carry on your/their property!

    I can conceal carry on my property, but
    the law does not recognize my permission for YOU to conceal carry on my property.

    You would expect that my permission to you would be binding, but the law could make the case against it!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    If one relied upon the writings of the MSP, and by doing so you were induced to commit some act which could be determined to be illegal, one could aver the defense of "equitable estoppel". So, although not truly a "precedent" upon which someone can rely with no worry of being issued a citation, the MSP legal update could be used to successfully defend charges for doing as the MSP Legal Update instructed. It all depends...
    But this wasn't a legal update, it was an email from one officer. While any and all of these things can be persuasive in a court case, they are not binding.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    But this wasn't a legal update, it was an email from one officer. While any and all of these things can be persuasive in a court case, they are not binding.
    Even better when you have been given specific information that it is lawful. But, like I said, "equitable estoppal" needs to be asserted as a defense, and most people wouldn't assert it. I will NEVER say ANYTHING is truly "binding" because even previous cases can be found to be non-binding to your particular circumstances ie there are no certainties in the law, only probabilities.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-02-2011 at 07:16 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    If you're wearing it, then probably, yes. You're going to get screwed.

    It would have to be placed on the bicycle in accordance with MCL 750.231a

    snip

    and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle

    I personally would have the gun in a locked case, although there is no mention of a lock in the statute, this will help you meet the "not easily accessible" wording of the statute.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-03-2011 at 02:31 AM.

  20. #20
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    I dont know where you're getting the idea for the requirement of a basket.

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    I see.

  22. #22
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    A place that is not "on or about" my person. Where else will you stash a gun case on a bicycle?
    I have seen people on bikes with their long gun cases slung over there shoulder while going to and from ranges and hunting. Could they be charged, yes, but like all the thousands of hunters with guns in their cars during deer season parked in all those establishments (Meijers, gas stations, bars, etc.) that have liquor licenses, it's unlikely they would be.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Even better when you have been given specific information that it is lawful. But, like I said, "equitable estoppal" needs to be asserted as a defense, and most people wouldn't assert it. I will NEVER say ANYTHING is truly "binding" because even previous cases can be found to be non-binding to your particular circumstances ie there are no certainties in the law, only probabilities.
    Perhaps, but as we know judges refuse to consider AG opinions, and case law or even the plain language of a statute. So as always you take your chances.

    Estoppal I thought was in regards to civil laws, contracts, deeds, marriages, etc. Not sure how it would play out in a criminal case. But IANAL.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  24. #24
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepfelsauce View Post
    Well we have the okay from the MSP, maybe I could carry a copy of what they wrote with me.

    You're welcome
    You are not doing this for me, I would not ask someone else to do for me without being willing to myself. My post was simply to ask you to be careful as I do not want to see you lose your rights.

    For some of these "gray areas", it is easier to get a CPL to "cover yourself"...

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    You are not doing this for me, I would not ask someone else to do for me without being willing to myself. My post was simply to ask you to be careful as I do not want to see you lose your rights.

    For some of these "gray areas", it is easier to get a CPL to "cover yourself"...
    Sad, but very true.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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