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Open Carry while getting hair cut

Glock214

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
164
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Would it be considered concealed when they put the apron on you? I was thinking I could just make sure the apron doesn't cover the gun from the side, like hold the edge on the chair arm so someone standing next to me could still see the whole handgun from the side.



Also in regards to traveling by bicycle to the place :


Welcome to OC aepfelsauce,

the way I understand it is even on a bike you can run into trouble w/out cpl if OC'ing. And as far as getting your hair cut you pistol would have to remain in plain view to be considered OC, if covered would be concealed. I'm sure others will comment as well, I am fairly new to the OC movement as well, waiting on my CPL right now. Carry On!!

Glock214
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
Welcome

Yes, it would be considered concealed carry. CC for short.

Same thing with a bicycle. It would probably have to go through court, that would be drawn out a couple years, and very expensive. My position, as well as a couple LEOs (law enforcement officers) that I have spoken with, is that if you can be charged with a DUI on a bike, you could be charged with a CCW as well.

I hope you're planning on getting a CPL, it makes life a lot easier. Meanwhile, read the stickies, and bookmark the following links.

Get a digital voice recorder with USB, and keep it on always.


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

http://www.migunowners.org/pub/OpenCarryGuideProject.pdf

http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5d1laqqxtheh0n45jzbetr3u))/mileg.aspx?page=home

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5d...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-234d

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5d...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-231a
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Would it be considered concealed when they put the apron on you? I was thinking I could just make sure the apron doesn't cover the gun from the side, like hold the edge on the chair arm so someone standing next to me could still see the whole handgun from the side.



Also in regards to traveling by bicycle to the place :

1. Yes, putting the apron over the firearm would be concealed. See link to the law below.
2. The law you reference concerns firearms that are not pistols (firearms over 30" in length) It would be nice if the law concerning the crime of carrying a concealed pistol also said "motor vehicles" rather than just "vehicles", then we would have some clarity regarding the bicycle issue. Venator posted a letter he received from the state police regarding carry on a motorcycle and has posted it on OCDO; the MSP said that in order to violate the law posted below, the firearm needs to be "in" a vehicle rather than "on" a vehicle. They did acknowledge that other PDs might not be so understanding.
see http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227
 
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Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
I believe the msp site said concealed was 'not visible to a casual observer'

So pretty much anytime sitting down, such as at a restaurant table, or leaning against a wall sideways would not be visible and possibly 'concealed'.

As stated you could be charged with anything. My opinion is that sitting at a table or against a wall would be pretty hard to get a charge of CCW. Let's take it a bit farther. If you are just standing weak side to someone, is the gun concealed? what if it's dark out, is the gun concealed? I would argue no.

Now should someone without a CPL walk down the street constantly spinning around quickly so the gun is always in view? Should they never OC at night? Or just on nights with a full moon? Where does it end?
 

aepfelsauce

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
21
Location
Meeshagin
Well no one knows for sure, yet.


I believe using marijuana while carrying/shooting will get your gun taken away faster, stainless.
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
It never ends.

I think life is too short to ruminate over what society might not deem as being "okay" or "technically legal". I am just going to go live my life. And I'm going to open carry on my bicycle until I get a cpl


Edit: Just so you know, I'm not planning on doing anything I know to be illegal. Just carrying on my bicycle.

Just so you know, you are volunteering to be the Test Case for resolving this "Gray Area". I sure hope you have "Deep Pockets" and are willing to put your Firearm Rights in danger, if not you may want to reconsider.

The wisest people I know on multiple forums say to stay FAR AWAY from this...
 

NHCGRPR45

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
1,131
Location
Chesterfield Township, MI
As stated you could be charged with anything. My opinion is that sitting at a table or against a wall would be pretty hard to get a charge of CCW. Let's take it a bit farther. If you are just standing weak side to someone, is the gun concealed? what if it's dark out, is the gun concealed? I would argue no.

Now should someone without a CPL walk down the street constantly spinning around quickly so the gun is always in view? Should they never OC at night? Or just on nights with a full moon? Where does it end?

Easily done all you need is roller skates and a dog or 2.:banana: Also having a funny hat couldn't hurt at all!
 

alphamale

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
215
Location
Michigan
And if the Barber who owns the place said it's okay to carry on his property then I would think there wouldn't be an issue.

Easily done all you need is roller skates and a dog or 2.:banana: Also having a funny hat couldn't hurt at all!
 

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
well,,,

And if the Barber who owns the place said it's okay to carry on his property then I would think there wouldn't be an issue.

You or the Barber can conceal carry on YOUR/THEIR OWN property!
But You Nor your Barber may give permission for another to conceal carry on your/their property!

I can conceal carry on my property, but
the law does not recognize my permission for YOU to conceal carry on my property.

You would expect that my permission to you would be binding, but the law could make the case against it!
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA


Keep in mind the MSP opinion has no weight in law. It is only "binding" with the MSP staff. Other departments are free to have different policies and opinions.​


If one relied upon the writings of the MSP, and by doing so you were induced to commit some act which could be determined to be illegal, one could aver the defense of "equitable estoppel". So, although not truly a "precedent" upon which someone can rely with no worry of being issued a citation, the MSP legal update could be used to successfully defend charges for doing as the MSP Legal Update instructed. It all depends...​
 

alphamale

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
215
Location
Michigan
If so then we have lost this country when we have no property rights, and no right to "bear" arms.


You or the Barber can conceal carry on YOUR/THEIR OWN property!
But You Nor your Barber may give permission for another to conceal carry on your/their property!

I can conceal carry on my property, but
the law does not recognize my permission for YOU to conceal carry on my property.

You would expect that my permission to you would be binding, but the law could make the case against it!
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
If one relied upon the writings of the MSP, and by doing so you were induced to commit some act which could be determined to be illegal, one could aver the defense of "equitable estoppel". So, although not truly a "precedent" upon which someone can rely with no worry of being issued a citation, the MSP legal update could be used to successfully defend charges for doing as the MSP Legal Update instructed. It all depends...

But this wasn't a legal update, it was an email from one officer. While any and all of these things can be persuasive in a court case, they are not binding.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
But this wasn't a legal update, it was an email from one officer. While any and all of these things can be persuasive in a court case, they are not binding.

Even better when you have been given specific information that it is lawful. But, like I said, "equitable estoppal" needs to be asserted as a defense, and most people wouldn't assert it. I will NEVER say ANYTHING is truly "binding" because even previous cases can be found to be non-binding to your particular circumstances ie there are no certainties in the law, only probabilities.
 
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stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
If you're wearing it, then probably, yes. You're going to get screwed.

It would have to be placed on the bicycle in accordance with MCL 750.231a

snip

and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle

I personally would have the gun in a locked case, although there is no mention of a lock in the statute, this will help you meet the "not easily accessible" wording of the statute.
 
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