Open Carry while getting hair cut

stainless1911 · Oct 3, 2011

I see.

Venator · Oct 3, 2011

aepfelsauce said:
A place that is not "on or about" my person. Where else will you stash a gun case on a bicycle?

I have seen people on bikes with their long gun cases slung over there shoulder while going to and from ranges and hunting. Could they be charged, yes, but like all the thousands of hunters with guns in their cars during deer season parked in all those establishments (Meijers, gas stations, bars, etc.) that have liquor licenses, it's unlikely they would be.

Venator · Oct 3, 2011

DrTodd said:
Even better when you have been given specific information that it is lawful. But, like I said, "equitable estoppal" needs to be asserted as a defense, and most people wouldn't assert it. I will NEVER say ANYTHING is truly "binding" because even previous cases can be found to be non-binding to your particular circumstances ie there are no certainties in the law, only probabilities.

Perhaps, but as we know judges refuse to consider AG opinions, and case law or even the plain language of a statute. So as always you take your chances.

Estoppal I thought was in regards to civil laws, contracts, deeds, marriages, etc. Not sure how it would play out in a criminal case. But IANAL.

PDinDetroit · Oct 3, 2011

aepfelsauce said:
Well we have the okay from the MSP, maybe I could carry a copy of what they wrote with me.

You're welcome

You are not doing this for me, I would not ask someone else to do for me without being willing to myself. My post was simply to ask you to be careful as I do not want to see you lose your rights.

For some of these "gray areas", it is easier to get a CPL to "cover yourself"...

DrTodd · Oct 3, 2011

PDinDetroit said:
You are not doing this for me, I would not ask someone else to do for me without being willing to myself. My post was simply to ask you to be careful as I do not want to see you lose your rights.

For some of these "gray areas", it is easier to get a CPL to "cover yourself"...

Sad, but very true.

HKcarrier · Oct 3, 2011

I OC'd on my bike for a while before geting my CPL... but when I rode, I always had my 2 small children with me, so it wasn't like I was threatening looking... never had any problems... even was passed by Lansing Police a couple times.

stainless1911 · Oct 3, 2011

I did to, with my then, 6 year old, up until people told me to knock it off, and took the time to explain why.

aepfelsauce · Oct 3, 2011

stainless1911 said:
I did to, with my then, 6 year old, up until people told me to knock it off, and took the time to explain why.

Why?

autosurgeon · Oct 3, 2011

aepfelsauce said:
Why?

Bicycle could be a vehicle ... thus a CPL might be required... Grey area... dark grey

aepfelsauce · Oct 3, 2011

autosurgeon said:
Bicycle could be a vehicle ... thus a CPL might be required... Grey area... dark grey

I thought he meant random concerned citizens.

stainless1911 · Oct 3, 2011

No, I keep my kid safe, they can worry about theirs.

Its an expensive legal gamble, and I do take advice.

DrTodd · Oct 4, 2011

HKcarrier said:
I OC'd on my bike for a while before geting my CPL... but when I rode, I always had my 2 small children with me, so it wasn't like I was threatening looking... never had any problems... even was passed by Lansing Police a couple times.

And I was stopped by a DNR officer to just chat while small-game hunting with a holstered pistol on a bmx bike. Nothing was said. Luckily, I didn't have an officer who considered it illegal... I may not have been so lucky. I have my CPL now so, no problem if I were to do so tomorrow. But, looking back, I could have had a huge problem... a felony.

stainless1911 · Oct 4, 2011

Yes, I provided that cite, how you go about meeting the statute is up to you. Just make sure you do it clearly, and leave as little room for interpretation as possible.

If you find a method that will pass muster, you might have a product on your hands.

xmanhockey7 · Oct 4, 2011

I think one part of the law that could get you which I haven't see discussed is this:

whether concealed or otherwise

I know the main argument right now is whether you can be "in" a bicycle. However, IMHO it MAY be brought up in court that it doesn't matter whether the pistol is concealed or not. I know this would probably be a weak argument and not the main point of how we are looking at it but figured I would just say it because you never know with court.

I understand how hard the MI firearms laws can be. I do not have a MI CPL but I do have two out-of-state carry permits. There is a gray area as to whether or not I am exempt from 750.234d. because I am licensed by another state to carry a concealed pistol. There is case law BEFORE we switched to shall issue that would argue against me, but when you look at the fact they switched the old statue for concealed carry from anyone licensed by another state to anyone licensed by their state of residence and only chose to make it in regards to two of the concealed carry laws and no where else, one could make an argument that the legislature had the opportunity to change the 750.234d. statue to resident permits only but didn't. Sorry to get side tracked.

stainless1911 · Oct 4, 2011

aepfelsauce said:
Does anyone know of a way to transport a pistol on a bicycle that is definitely legal, without a cpl?

I would suggest getting a bicycle with a rack, or possibly a case or basket. Then permanantly affix a GUN case to that case, basket or rack. I would highly recommend a lock for the case. A combination lock would be best, especially if the case were situated behind you.

It could be argued that a combination lock that was behind you would render the gun "not easily accessible".

ETA, get off the bike to case/ uncase.

As long as you're jumping through hoops like a costumed monkey, the courts should be satisfied.

stainless1911 · Oct 4, 2011

I find it interesting that you could be charged with a felony for carrying a pistol on a bike without a CPl, yet you could carry a .50 cal rifle on one and it would be a misdemeanor. All you would have to do to avoid the misdemeanor is take the bolt out of the rifle.

PDinDetroit · Oct 4, 2011

A pink basket SHOULD be less threatening...

fbc41e612fb079e80e1214fbe4beb811.image.350x287.jpg

aepfelsauce · Oct 5, 2011

Maybe this to go with it

Jared · Oct 5, 2011

xmanhockey7 said:
I think one part of the law that could get you which I haven't see discussed is this:
I know the main argument right now is whether you can be "in" a bicycle. However, IMHO it MAY be brought up in court that it doesn't matter whether the pistol is concealed or not. I know this would probably be a weak argument and not the main point of how we are looking at it but figured I would just say it because you never know with court.

I understand how hard the MI firearms laws can be. I do not have a MI CPL but I do have two out-of-state carry permits. There is a gray area as to whether or not I am exempt from 750.234d. because I am licensed by another state to carry a concealed pistol. There is case law BEFORE we switched to shall issue that would argue against me, but when you look at the fact they switched the old statue for concealed carry from anyone licensed by another state to anyone licensed by their state of residence and only chose to make it in regards to two of the concealed carry laws and no where else, one could make an argument that the legislature had the opportunity to change the 750.234d. statue to resident permits only but didn't. Sorry to get side tracked.

There was never case law on 750.234d. There was never case law on carrying on an out of state permit. That was just an AG opinion about carrying under the may issue law. There was no case law on the matter and I can find no record of ANYONE being convicted for carrying on an out of state permit.

The shall issue law (crappy worded poor law that MI now has) changed that in reference to concealed carry or vehicle carry; HOWEVER, 234d still says licensed to carry by this state or another state. 234d says what 234d says. Why people try to add or subtract words from it is beyond me.

xmanhockey7 · Oct 5, 2011

At first glance, the language of MCL 750.231a(1)(a) appears
unambiguous. "A person holding a valid license to carry a pistol
concealed upon his or her person issued by another state" appears
to apply to any person, and not only a resident of the state that
issued the license. However, when read together with the licensing
requirements for Michigan residents, and in light of the general
purpose of the CCW statute, we find that the legislature intended
the exemption to apply only to nonresidents of Michigan."
and
"It is more reasonable to assume that the exemptions in MCL 750.231a; MSA28.248(1) are designed to apply to persons not covered by the
licensing procedure in place for Michigan residents.

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/people_v_williams.txt

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