Tim Carpenter's CC Town Hall.

XDFDE45 · Oct 1, 2011

Yes you read that right. The same state senator who mailed me a few times saying he was all for CC for judges and retired LEO. So when the bill came up for a vote he voted "NO". I guess the rest of us malcontents have no need for a gun

.

So today in the mail I get this from him saying:

"Dear Friend,

An important part of my job as your state senator is to answer your questions about state government. At previous Town Halls and going door to door many folks have had questions about how the new law allowing the carrying of concealed weapons will affect our neighborhoods and our state.

I have decided to have a special Town Hall to have members of law enforcement and the district attorney's office discuss how this will be implemented, and what it will mean to those who wish to apply for a concealed weapons permit, and those who are concerned about where such weapons will be allowed in our homes and businesses."

Considering his stance on CC as shown in his "No" vote for the bill I can only imagine what is going to be said, and if LE is going to be there I'm sure there will be plenty gnashing of the teeth. I may have to make an appearance just to correct any misinformation about the new law cuz I have a strange feeling there is going to be some outlandish things said. For anyone else you is interested here is the info.

Tim Carpenter's Concealed Carry Town Hall

Wilson Park Senior Center
Date: Friday, October 14, 2011
Time: 12:00 Noon - 2:00 PM
Location: Wilson Park Senior Center
2601 W. Howard Ave.

Luckily it will give me plenty of time to get to work after the meeting.

protias · Oct 1, 2011

How nice of him to hold it during the work day...

davegran · Oct 1, 2011

XDFDE45 said:
Yes you read that right. The same state senator who mailed me a few times saying he was all for CC for judges and retired LEO. So when the bill came up for a vote he voted "NO". I guess the rest of us malcontents have no need for a gun

.

.... I may have to make an appearance just to correct any misinformation about the new law cuz I have a strange feeling there is going to be some outlandish things said. For anyone else you is interested here is the info.

Tim Carpenter's Concealed Carry Town Hall

Wilson Park Senior Center
Date: Friday, October 14, 2011
Time: 12:00 Noon - 2:00 PM
Location: Wilson Park Senior Center
2601 W. Howard Ave.

Luckily it will give me plenty of time to get to work after the meeting.

Go get 'em! I hope you have a recorder 'cause this guy is going to have to do quite a tap dance to please everybody in the room.... You could have one of the elderly residents ask one of the cops if it will be alright to strap a holster to her walker.... :lol:

MKEgal · Oct 4, 2011

I am planning to be there, barring unforseen circumstances.

Here's a map of the location:
http://maps.google.com/maps/place?r...417b84,Milwaukee,+WI&cid=13688120161191975717

And now I'm confused as to whether or not this is a taxpayer-owned building.
This seems to list it as a county building/service:
http://county.milwaukee.gov/SeniorCenters12747.htm

But this makes it look like a religious-run place:
http://home.interfaithmilw.org/sc/wilson

Looks like some phone calls are in order...
If it's not a prohibited place, I'll carry.
If it is a criminal empowerment zone, I might make a point by OCing an orange gun & maybe ccing an obvious toy pistol. Would also point out to any scaredy-pants in attendance that those could just as easily have been real, if I weren't a LAC.

ETA: having a printout of Act 35, with useful bits highlighted / stickied, would be a good idea.
Just in case there's any, um, misinformation floating around that needs facts to correct it.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf

XDFDE45 · Oct 4, 2011

MKEgal said:
I am planning to be there, barring unforseen circumstances.

Here's a map of the location:
http://maps.google.com/maps/place?rlz=1T4ACEW_enUS300US301&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=milwaukee+wisconsin+"wilson+park+senior+center"&fb=1&gl=us&hq="wilson+park+senior+center"&hnear=0x880502d7578b47e7:0x445f1922b5417b84,Milwaukee,+WI&cid=13688120161191975717

And now I'm confused as to whether or not this is a taxpayer-owned building.
This seems to list it as a county building/service:
http://county.milwaukee.gov/SeniorCenters12747.htm

But this makes it look like a religious-run place:
http://home.interfaithmilw.org/sc/wilson

Looks like some phone calls are in order...
If it's not a prohibited place, I'll carry.
If it is a criminal empowerment zone, I might make a point by ocing an orange gun & maybe ccing an obvious toy pistol. Would also point out to any scaredy-pants in attendance that those could just as easily have been real, if I weren't a LAC.

ETA: having a printout of Act 35, with useful bits highlighted / stickied, would be a good idea.
Just in case there's any, um, misinformation floating around that needs facts to correct it.

I plan on calling this week to see if I can find out about whether it is a county building or not. I was also thinking about making a printout myself. Good idea.

LaBomba · Oct 4, 2011

Wilson Park is a county-owned park. The park building is used for a senior program run under a contract between the County Dept. of Aging and a service provider. A mid-day Town Hall there is convenient for seniors who are already on site, and that's the target audience (although the meeting is open to all).

Are people really planning to go to this meeting looking for confrontation? I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not.

Personally I'd be curious to see who's on hand for DOJ. What a great opportunity to ask that person questions about the rules, open carry in vehicles, etc.

paul@paul-fisher.com · Oct 4, 2011

MKEgal said:
ETA: having a printout of Act 35, with useful bits highlighted / stickied, would be a good idea.
Just in case there's any, um, misinformation floating around that needs facts to correct it.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf

That's what I carry with me as well. Helped alot when I was discussing some finer points of the law with the City of Elkhorn attorney in the council meeting. I was right, he was wrong.

XDFDE45 · Oct 4, 2011

LaBomba said:
Are people really planning to go to this meeting looking for confrontation? I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not.

I am not going looking for a confrontation but plan to correct any mistakes that might be put out. As we all know and have seen pols and LEO can let their personal views get the better of them. I'm hoping that is not the case but better to give people the RIGHT information than false information.

LaBomba · Oct 4, 2011

XDFDE45 said:
I am not going looking for a confrontation but plan to correct any mistakes that might be put out. As we all know and have seen pols and LEO can let their personal views get the better of them. I'm hoping that is not the case but better to give people the RIGHT information than false information.

+1000!

MKEgal · Oct 4, 2011

Here's what I've learned this morning...

The building is owned by the county, so under 941.235 we still have to ask permission until 01NOV.
I called the sheriff's office & was told to email him [sheriff@milwcty.com].
This is what I'm sending... we'll see what, if any, response he gives.
Feel free to borrow, but please re-word so it sounds different.

Sheriff Clarke,

I am a citizen residing in Milwaukee County & I am planning to attend a town hall (sponsored by state Senator Carpenter) this Friday afternoon at the Wilson Park Senior Center, which is owned by Milwaukee County.

The subject of the meeting is Act 35, our new concealed carry law.
Under that law, starting 01NOV (or as soon thereafter as DOJ will issue permits) I will be able lawfully to carry a pistol for my own protection in a taxpayer-owned building such as the senior center.

Until then, state law 941.235 (2) says that I must beg permission from a sheriff or chief of police to do the same act. (See quote of law below.)

So I am writing you to get permission peacefully to exercise my right to bear arms. Boy, that sticks in my craw!

Bear in mind that if I intended harm, I would not alert anyone. I would not ask permission. I would not be concerned with what the law says. But since I am a mostly law-abiding person (I admit to being a bit happy on the throttle of a motorcycle from time to time), I am trying to do what the law requires.

The purpose of the meeting is to discuss lawfully-armed citizens. It only makes sense that at least some citizens who are there should be lawfully armed.

Since the time is short, please reply by email, so I can print it out & carry it to forestall any potential hassles.

[closing]

941.235 Carrying firearm in public building.
(1) Any person who goes armed with a firearm in any building owned or leased by the state or any political subdivision of the state is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

(2) This section does not apply to peace officers or armed forces or military personnel who go armed in the line of duty or to any person duly authorized by the chief of police of any city, village or town, the chief of the capitol police, or the sheriff of any county to possess a firearm in any building under sub. (1).

davegran · Oct 4, 2011

MKEgal said:
....
If it is a criminal empowerment zone, I might make a point by OCing an orange gun & maybe ccing an obvious toy pistol. Would also point out to any scaredy-pants in attendance that those could just as easily have been real, if I weren't a LAC....https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf

Isn't there a prohibition (statute # escapes me) on carrying replica guns, toys or not?

protias · Oct 4, 2011

davegran said:
Isn't there a prohibition (statute # escapes me) on carrying replica guns, toys or not?

941.2965

MKEgal · Oct 4, 2011

LaBomba said:
A mid-day Town Hall there is convenient for seniors who are already on site, and that's the target audience

I understood that the target audience was business owners who were concerned about the hordes of concealed carriers they want to refuse entry, & people who want to know how to tell their friends they're no longer welcome to visit.

I may be thoroughly surprised that there are seniors (& others) in attendance who want to get a cc permit, & this doesn't degenerate into another episode of "the sky is falling".
That'd be nice.

Are people really planning to go to this meeting looking for confrontation? I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not.

XDFDE45 said:
I am not going looking for a confrontation but plan to correct any mistakes that might be put out.

Ditto.
If allowed to carry, I will.
If not, I'll carry plastic (orange, obviously fake) pistols to silently complain.

Interesting... I've gotten 3 'automated' confirmations that my email to the Sheriff was received:
11:34, 13:18, 15:24
The last 2 say "this message has been forwarded". Wonder to & from whom, & why? The gal answering the phone for the dep't assured me that that was his email & he reads it himself.

Wonder if the doors to the senior center will look different Friday than they did this morning?

ETA: 05OCT, & my email has been forwarded a total of 5 times... once after I got the answer I'll post below.
I'm considering giving the email exchange to some reporters.
Show that the Sheriff isn't really for the "little people", & his minions don't understand the law.

MKEgal · Oct 4, 2011

davegran said:
Isn't there a prohibition (statute # escapes me) on carrying replica guns, toys or not?

As Joe pointed out, there is.
And I knew about it, which is why I twice mentioned them being obviously fake:

(1) In this section, "facsimile firearm" means any replica, toy, starter pistol or other object that bears a reasonable resemblance to or that reasonably can be perceived to be an actual firearm. "Facsimile firearm" does not include any actual firearm.

(2) No person may carry or display a facsimile firearm in a manner that could reasonably be expected to alarm, intimidate, threaten or terrify another person. Whoever violates this section is subject to a Class C forfeiture.

It has the usual outs for LEO & military in the performance of official duties, & people on their own property.

LaBomba · Oct 4, 2011

MKEgal said:
I understood that the target audience was business owners who were concerned about the hordes of concealed carriers they want to refuse entry, & people who want to know how to tell their friends they're no longer welcome to visit.

I assumed seniors were the target audience because it's being held at a senior center, and businesses aren't a core constituency for this particular Senator. Sounds like you have different info, so I stand corrected.

MKEgal said:
I may be thoroughly surprised that there are seniors (& others) in attendance who want to get a cc permit, & this doesn't degenerate into another episode of "the sky is falling".
That'd be nice.

Why wouldn't seniors be pro 2a? Consider:

a relatively high percentage of senior males grew up with guns, meaning that many senior females grew up with guns in the household
Many senior men & women served in the military, protecting rights including 2a rights
Seniors consistently rank crime a top issue

I think a little pre-emptive speech early in the session, in the guise of asking a question, could rouse the audience to support Act 35. That would be big news for the Senator, who relies on the senior vote.

davegran · Oct 5, 2011

Grey Power!!

LaBomba said:
....
I think a little pre-emptive speech early in the session, in the guise of asking a question, could rouse the audience to support Act 35. That would be big news for the Senator, who relies on the senior vote.

This is a GREAT idea! Either that or go to the senior center the day before the meeting and pass out informational fliers.

springfield40 · Oct 5, 2011

davegran said:
This is a GREAT idea! Either that or go to the senior center the day before the meeting and pass out informational fliers.

A very, very, very stupid idea.

MKEgal · Oct 5, 2011

response from the Sheriff's flunky

From: Edward.Bailey@milwcnty.com

Ms. S:

The statute that you are referencing 941.235 Carrying firearm in public building is very specific:

(1) Any person who goes armed with a firearm in any building owned or leased by the state or any political subdivision of the state is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) Peace officers or armed forces or military personnel who go armed in the line of duty or to any person duly authorized by the chief of police of any city, village or town, the chief of the capitol police, or the sheriff of any county to possess a firearm in any building under sub. (1). Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (22), for purposes of this paragraph, peace officer does not include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission warden.
(c) A qualified out−of−state law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (g), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (b) 1. to 3. applies.
(d) A former officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (c), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (c) 1. to 7. applies.
(e) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

As you can see, the language that you reference, "or to any person duly authorized by the chief of police of any city, village or town, the chief of the capitol police, or the sheriff of any county" is a portion of Sub A, which in totality refers to law enforcement officers, or those being deputed to a law enforcement function by a chief executive. As neither of these situations applies to you, you will need to wait until Nov. 1, and the changes in law that are upcoming (and which Sheriff Clarke supported in Madison through committee testimony!) to go about armed.

Also, the statute you are referencing (941.235) is building specific...You would still be in conflict with 941.23 (CCW) until the new law goes into effect.

Interestingly, I do note this: I see that a lot of groups are rushing to specifically prohibit the concealed carry of weapons in "their" buildings...And I expect that before the dust settles the senior centers will well be included in that group.

Sorry, but no authorization is granted.

Approved:

Inspector Edward H. Bailey
Adjutant to Sheriff Clarke
Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
FBINA 223
"Expect The Best"

#####
I'll put my response in another post.

MKEgal · Oct 5, 2011

I also bcc'd this to David.Clarke@milwcnty.com
It hasn't bounced, so I'm thinking that's his real email.

Ed Bailey said:
Ed Bailey said:

> 941.235 Carrying firearm in public building is very specific:

Click to expand...

Yes, it is. I've read it many times.
I also understand that _OR_ indicates the beginning of a separate group or thought. In the case under discussion:

> Peace officers
> or
> armed forces
> or
> military personnel who go armed in the line of duty
> or to any person duly authorized by ...the sheriff ...

gives us 4 groups of people who are authorized.
Only the normal citizens have to beg permission.
And please note that ANY chief of police or sheriff can give that permission. There's no restriction to a head LEO being in WI, or in the county or city where the building stands.

So he doesn't understand what the law says about the Sheriff giving permission...

Ed Bailey said:
Ed Bailey said:

> refers to law enforcement officers, or those being deputed to a law enforcement
> function by a chief executive. As neither of these situations applies to you, you
> will need to wait until Nov. 1, and the changes in law that are upcoming (and
> which Sheriff Clarke supported in Madison through committee testimony!) to go
> about armed.

Click to expand...

And he doesn't understand what the law says about carrying openly...
(I see a need for education.)

Ed Bailey said:
First, the law says nothing about the "any person" acting (or expecting to act, or being expected to act) in a law enforcement function.
Any means any.

Second, I was at the hearing in Madison, & was flabbergasted when Sheriff Clarke spoke in favor of citizens being armed for our own protection, & admitted that LEO can't protect everyone all the time.
He did, however, seem to support a more rights-restrictive method of licensing. I still don't understand how registering the good people will do anything to stop the bad ones. (By the time an officer can even ask for a permit, if the person they're approaching is intent on murder the officer would already be shot.)

Third, I don't have to wait to "go about armed". I already do, lawfully carrying openly. As I said before, I tend to be law-abiding, which is why I've done what the law requires and begged permission to exercise a right which is protected by the Constitutions of both the country & state.

Ed Bailey said:

> You would still be in conflict with 941.23 (CCW) until the new law goes into effect.

Click to expand...

Only if I weren't carrying openly.
I'm not ashamed of exercising my rights, so I don't hide my self-defense tool.
There are situations in which it will be more polite to do so, & in the places which recognize either my right to carry or one of my permits, I have carried concealed.

And he doesn't understand that OC is currently legal... & will remain so.
Again, I see the need for some education.

Ed Bailey said:
Ed Bailey said:

> I see that a lot of groups are rushing to specifically prohibit the concealed carry
> of weapons. I expect that before the dust settles the senior centers will well be
> included in that group.

Click to expand...

They can't prohibit concealed 'weapons'. The law doesn't give that option. They may either prohibit or allow, in toto.
And I hope all their insurance companies understand the new law which only grants immunity from liability to places which do NOT prohibit the lawful carry of self-defense tools. (I've never handled a weapon in my life, & I'm a pistol instructor.)
Besides, what criminal do you know who would be stopped by a sign, or the threat of a misdemeanor, when he's intent on committing at least one felony?

Ed Bailey said:

> "Expect The Best"

Click to expand...

I did. Too bad my elected representative didn't come through.
I'll let people know.

apierce918 · Oct 6, 2011

awesome response

Tim Carpenter's CC Town Hall.

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