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Thread: Detroit Police Department stop #12 for me

  1. #1
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Detroit Police Department stop #12 for me

    OCed 10.2 miles through Detroit and Highland Park this afternoon. I was stopped by DPD on Pontchatrain and 7 mile and ticketed for riding a bicycle without a license.

    listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fubq7KDD0-c

    The LEO in question stated he didn’t want to ticket me for the bicycle license violation: “I could care less about you riding a bicycle.” But he did so in retaliation because I refused to answer his initial question about “Why do I feel the need to open carry two guns?” followed by a refusal disclose whether I had a valid CPL. He became frustrated because I kept answering his questions with a question of my own, it quickly became a circular conversation. He had to cite me for the bicycle violation in order to force my hand in identifying myself.

    Yes, I have audio of the entire stop although there is a very long period of silence because I stopped talking. After handing over my I.D. I heard him mumble some kind of response in answering his question to me. He got it wrong, at which point I politely asking the LEO to stop putting words in my mouth. He sarcastically stated he wouldn’t ask me anymore questions. I then remained silent for the remainder of the stop.

    They fumbled around making various calls as well as combing through a well used pamphlet of code violations so as to find the exact code violation for my offense. I also have to bleep out my name so the audio isn’t ready just yet. Surprisingly enough, they said absolutely nothing about the body armor.

    Admittedly the LEOs approached in a friendly manner so as to engage me in casual conversation. But given that this was my 12th stop, I’m too seasoned now to fall for that trick. However, the LEO’s demeanor soured when I politely explained to him that “My right to keep and bear arms is my God given right and is beyond your scope.” I asked him was I being detained and he said “No” but when I asked him whether I was free to go he said “No” and kept insisting that I answer his questions.

    I refused to disclose whether I had a CPL and explained to him that I didn’t need one to OC. He became very agitated and vocally regretted his “soft shoe” approach saying that perhaps if he had approached me being an A-hole he would’ve gotten better results. He said “I’m going to ask you one more time, then we‘re going to have to do this the hard way.”

    They took my guns for officer safety at first then later on in the stop the primary LEO took them inside the squad car and ran the serial numbers. You will hear me on tape saying I do not consent to any search or seizure of my property as they were disarming me.

    Bottom line the LEOs in question thought they had a right to my most inner and private thoughts on the 2nd Amendment as to the reasons “why I carry two guns openly” They thought my privacy of mind could be purchased for a mere $55 ( I think that’s the price for the fine) so as to avoid a ticket. I held my ground until they nicked me on the bicycle license violation. Again, this is why I consider some of them nothing more that thugs with a badge.

    Also I think this may go to buttress the argument that a bicycle is considered a vehicle…. The LEO writing the ticket asked his partner “This goes under moving violations right?” And his partner replied “Yes.” And the primary LEO kept pushing the people at dispatch to find out whether I had a CPL, I think he was going to try and charge me with a CCW violation if I didn’t have a CPL.

    I then rode right down the street to go inside the 12th Precinct to actually acquire the bicycle license but I was met at the door my two LEOs with their hands on their hips and a metal detector and a sign saying no weapons. One LEO said “What do you think you’re doing?” I replied “A police station is not a pistol free zone.” He said something but I had already turned away and was walking back to my bicycle. I had already had enough trouble for the day. Besides with it being Sunday they probably weren’t issuing bicycle licenses anyway.
    Last edited by cmdr_iceman71; 10-05-2011 at 05:10 PM.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry Petty, very petty.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    OCed 10.2 miles through Detroit and Highland Park this afternoon. I was stopped by DPD on Pontchatrain and 7 mile and ticketed for riding a bicycle without a license.

    The LEO in question stated he didn’t want to ticket me for the bicycle license violation: “I could care less about you riding a bicycle.” But he did so in retaliation because I refused to answer his initial question about “Why do I feel the need to open carry two guns?” followed by a refusal disclose whether I had a valid CPL. He became frustrated because I kept answering his questions with a question of my own, it quickly became a circular conversation. He had to cite me for the bicycle violation in order to force my hand in identifying myself.

    Yes, I have audio of the entire stop although there is a very long period of silence because I stopped talking. After handing over my I.D. I heard him mumble some kind of response in answering his question to me. He got it wrong, at which point I politely asking the LEO to stop putting words in my mouth. He sarcastically stated he wouldn’t ask me anymore questions. I then remained silent for the remainder of the stop.

    They fumbled around making various calls as well as combing through a well used pamphlet of code violations so as to find the exact code violation for my offense. I also have to bleep out my name so the audio isn’t ready just yet. Surprisingly enough, they said absolutely nothing about the body armor.

    Admittedly the LEOs approached in a friendly manner so as to engage me in casual conversation. But given that this was my 12th stop, I’m too seasoned now to fall for that trick. However, the LEO’s demeanor soured when I politely explained to him that “My right to keep and bear arms is my God given right and is beyond your scope.” I asked him was I being detained and he said “No” but when I asked him whether I was free to go he said “No” and kept insisting that I answer his questions.

    I refused to disclose whether I had a CPL and explained to him that I didn’t need one to OC. He became very agitated and vocally regretted his “soft shoe” approach saying that perhaps if he had approached me being an A-hole he would’ve gotten better results. He said “I’m going to ask you one more time, then we‘re going to have to do this the hard way.”

    They took my guns for officer safety at first then later on in the stop the primary LEO took them inside the squad car and ran the serial numbers. You will hear me on tape saying I do not consent to any search or seizure of my property as they were disarming me.

    Bottom line the LEOs in question thought they had a right to my most inner and private thoughts on the 2nd Amendment as to the reasons “why I carry two guns openly” They thought my privacy of mind could be purchased for a mere $60 ( I think that’s the price for the fine) so as to avoid a ticket. I held my ground until they nicked me on the bicycle license violation. Again, this is why I consider some of them nothing more that thugs with a badge.

    Also I think this may go to buttress the argument that a bicycle is considered a vehicle…. The LEO writing the ticket asked his partner “This goes under moving violations right?” And his partner replied “Yes.” And the primary LEO kept pushing the people at dispatch to find out whether I had a CPL, I think he was going to try and charge me with a CCW violation if I didn’t have a CPL.

    I then rode right down the street to go inside the 12th Precinct to actually acquire the bicycle license but I was met at the door my two LEOs with their hands on their hips and a metal detector and a sign saying no weapons. One LEO said “What do you think you’re doing?” I replied “A police station is not a pistol free zone.” He said something but I had already turned away and was walking back to my bicycle. I had already had enough trouble for the day. Besides with it being Sunday they probably weren’t issuing bicycle licenses anyway.
    Good on you ICEMAN! +1

    Talk about petty tactics, this one takes the cake!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  3. #3
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    Good job on handling it...but a license to ride a bicycle, what next a license required to walk down the street?

    What is detroit doing?

  4. #4
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    A bicycle license? Seriously?

    Good for you standing up for your rights!
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Did they cite the law you supposedly violated; I have been unable to find that in their municipal code. I have seen a requirement for licenses for motor driven bicycles, but not for one under human power. Please send me the "law" they say you violated and I'll keep looking.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-02-2011 at 07:03 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  6. #6
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    Hmmm, this is interesting regarding bicycle licenses...

    http://www.m-bike.org/blog/2008/07/0...e-enforcement/

    But the real story is the law is unenforceable under state law.

    To begin with MCL 257.606 sub-section (1)(i) states that local authorities can “[Regulate] the operation of bicycles and requiring the registration and licensing of bicycles, including the requirement of a registration fee.” The CIty of Detroit can require bicycle licenses.

    However, MCL 257.606 sub-section (3) says that such a requirement “shall not be enforceable until signs giving notice of the local traffic regulations are posted upon or at the entrance to the highway or street or part of the highway or street affected, as may be most appropriate, and are sufficiently legible as to be seen by an ordinarily observant person.”

    Detroit does not have any such signage
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    OK, found it... actually an article about it because IT WAS REMOVED from the municipal code and made VOLUNTARY. Don't buy the license just yet!!!

    http://www.m-bike.org/blog/2009/05/07/hearing-for-new-detroit-bicycle-registration/

    http://www.m-bike.org/blog/2008/07/2...license-fines/
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-02-2011 at 08:06 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  8. #8
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    Dr Todd was 1 minute faster than me!
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 10-02-2011 at 07:17 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    Dr Todd was 1 minute faster than me!
    It took me so long because I went here and then tried to check what the "requirements" of this voluntary license were... and got an error when I clicked the link, then I noticed that I could make out the word "removed",see "RMOVE", in the actual link:

    http://library.municode.com/HTML/10649/level3/PTIIICICO_CH55TRMOVE_ARTIXMOMOIVCYBI.html



    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-02-2011 at 07:29 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    It took me so long because I went here and then tried to check what the "requirements" of this voluntary license were... and got an error when I clicked the link, then I noticed that I could make out the word "removed",see "RMOVE", in the actual link:

    http://library.municode.com/HTML/10649/level3/PTIIICICO_CH55TRMOVE_ARTIXMOMOIVCYBI.html



    So what does that mean? I dont have to pay the ticket or what?
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I would post no more about this publicly until you have talked with a lawyer.

  12. #12
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Is one required to carry identification when OC'ing?

    If not, then, just Why were you carrying I.D.?
    Were you about to purchase an airline ticket? cash a check? purchase alcohol?

    (and that's just me being a $%@# while encouraging 'sterile carry' :P )

  14. #14
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Jeeze, this sounds like my incident. I was stopped in a park by two LEOs who sat in the back of the parking lot for two hours waiting for me to ride through the parking lot on a Sunday morning, and made me stop and put me in a wrist lock and said they didn't think it was legal riding a bicycle in that park. I then pointed out a sign RIGHT BEHIND THE GUY which said 'Bicycles yield to pedestrians'. No apologies or nothing. Then they said 'oh someone said you went around the corner too fast'. I pointed out there were no speed limits or ranges and that the corner they pointed to was a greater than 90 degree turn with slippery gravel and said it would be suicide to go around that corner quickly on a bicycle too quickly, in fact they realized it couldn't be done.

    I turned out some older woman reported me (how they knew it was me among all the other bicycle riders is a mystery, because it was three days earlier) for some fake crime because I reminded her that going 30mph in parking lot cutting across the entrance to the bike path on a blind round about almost caused her to run me over. The speed is 5mph posted. She was literally throwing gravel and had disappeared behind some foliage. I just HAPPENED to slow before coming off the bike path and she missed me by inches. She must have had a friend in the PD.

    Didn't get charged, but man were they frustrated that they were wrong on several counts. Next they asked me if I had a horn - I had a horn attached to the handlebars in PLAIN VIEW - it was BRIGHT RED. Then they asked me if I had lights. IT WAS DAYTIME. Sheesh. Finally they released me and wandered off.
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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Is one required to carry identification when OC'ing?

    If not, then, just Why were you carrying I.D.?
    Were you about to purchase an airline ticket? cash a check? purchase alcohol?

    (and that's just me being a $%@# while encouraging 'sterile carry' :P )
    Right after I was disarmed, you will hear the LEO on the recording demand I.D. saying that I have to have it on me, saying we dont know who you are, youre a John Doe. I protest and tell him that Michigan isnt a "stop and identify state" and that in order to for me to have to identify myself I they must cite me for some code violation. In the background you will hear his partner reminding him that I said I didnt have a license of the bicycle. So at that point the primary LEO said he was going to cite me for the bicycle violation so as to force me to identify myself.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

  16. #16
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Goes to show you can beat the rap but not the "ride". Good luck and hope they get smacked on the patty cakes.

    Lord I'm such a recidivist, I've had one or two tickets in my life, one a bogus cite in Goochland going 56mph in a 55, and one for driving through a parking lot to see the hours of a bank, avoiding (allegedly) a traffic light.

    Well, less scary for them than an -actual- criminal, that's true.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    So what does that mean? I dont have to pay the ticket or what?
    See if you can deny guilt by mail or phone, otherwise, you may have to go before a magistrate for a few minutes and tell them you were cited for a law that doesn't exist.
    Last edited by aepfelsauce; 10-02-2011 at 08:37 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Vmaxx's Avatar
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    Do we need a bicycle OC event? If I had a good place to park I'd be up for it!

  19. #19
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Right after I was disarmed, you will hear the LEO on the recording demand I.D. saying that I have to have it on me, saying we don't know who you are, you're a John Doe. I protest and tell him that Michigan isn't a "stop and identify state" and that in order to for me to have to identify myself I they must cite me for some code violation. In the background you will hear his partner reminding him that I said I didn't have a license of the bicycle. So at that point the primary LEO said he was going to cite me for the bicycle violation so as to force me to identify myself.
    Ah, but that still doesn't mean that you must carry identification, does it?
    How nice of him to cite you for an ordinance that doesn't seem to ..... .... ... exist.

  20. #20
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    Dam what the poh poh will do to make a buck, or get your ID,

    My new saying now that i got from my son is ( REEAALLLLY ? !) that is what i say now when interacting with the PD...

  21. #21
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    All of you should be ashamed of yourselves. The police are our protectors, and deserve our unconditional cooperation and support in everything they do.

    Of course! the officer retaliated. Of course! the officer pushed back as hard as he could in the face of a refusal to submit to his authority and comply with his wishes. There was nothing at all wrong with this.

    The fact the other officer stood by and let it all happen is proof there was nothing wrong with the officer's actions. Everybody knows that police take a very dim view of the very, very few rights-violator cops and will instantly interrupt even the slightest suggestion of a violation. I'll wager internal affairs won't even investigate this encounter, which would be more proof that it was by-the-book and proper.

    /sarcasm

  22. #22
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    a valid complaint will be on the policeman's record for five years. i would foia the stop and file a complaint.

    iceman, as per usual, you handled yourself great.

  23. #23
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    Nice Job commander. I think some follow through is necessary on this one. Again, nice job.

  24. #24
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Right after I was disarmed, you will hear the LEO on the recording demand I.D. saying that I have to have it on me, saying we dont know who you are, youre a John Doe. I protest and tell him that Michigan isnt a "stop and identify state" and that in order to for me to have to identify myself I they must cite me for some code violation. In the background you will hear his partner reminding him that I said I didnt have a license of the bicycle. So at that point the primary LEO said he was going to cite me for the bicycle violation so as to force me to identify myself.
    How very investigative of him! Making rule and procedure AND codes up as he goes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vmaxx View Post
    Do we need a bicycle OC event? If I had a good place to park I'd be up for it!
    IN! But i'll have to ride on somebodies handle bars! EESSH I can feel laser beams of LEOS eyes already! Hey CMDR, you can come and ride your bike around in my parking lot at the BLVD and Michigan ave anytime you want to! Then there will be at least 1 armed person who is LEGAL! I work saturday and sun 7am to 10 pm I have free water for you and a bathroom! love to see ya!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  25. #25
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    Iceman has much more patience than I.

    This was removed from city code back in 2008 and this Officer has no clue? Sounds like he knew and may be in the arena of harassment, and the mere fact iceman has been pulled over this many times starts to sound like the California Walkman case.




    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    OK, found it... actually an article about it because IT WAS REMOVED from the municipal code and made VOLUNTARY. Don't buy the license just yet!!!

    http://www.m-bike.org/blog/2009/05/07/hearing-for-new-detroit-bicycle-registration/

    http://www.m-bike.org/blog/2008/07/2...license-fines/

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