I work at a private night club next to a pretty surly part of downtown mobile. We all have conceal to carry and practice it as we should. We also have mobile police coming in and out all the time since there is allot of gun crimes in the city. I asked the officers if open carry could be practiced in mobile, al...and cited the open carry laws. However they said politely that your open carry rights in this state are countered with the fact you can only have open carry on your personal property and not in your vehicle. So if I did open carry would be arrested and the firearm would be confiscated for good. Is this true? If so why do people say Alabama is an open carry state? Any legal advice for me if I want to open carry?
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Is it legal?
- Thread starter Nm428
- Start date
Brimstone Baritone
Regular Member
They are either misinformed, or they lied to you. There is no law stating that you may only open carry on your own property. In fact there are several court cases and attorney general opinions to the opposite effect.
If you can legally own a firearm in the state of Alabama, you can OC. You have a permit, so the vehicle thing isn't an issue.
If you can legally own a firearm in the state of Alabama, you can OC. You have a permit, so the vehicle thing isn't an issue.
Be careful they are misreading -52, by ommission of the later statute -55. Also, they are ignoring the court cases, which deal with -52 and -50, Braxton vs state and C.D.J vs state. The court cases and -55 establish that -52 is only a law that can be used against CONCEALING a firearm on property not your own. However, at least one person has been convicted in a municipal court of violating -52, while he was OC. Of course the officers could be simply lying and know the legality but are hoping to scare you into being a subject, challenge their possible bluff at your own risk.
Brimstone Baritone
Regular Member
Let me just quote you the law on that subject.
Section 15-5-31 said:
So in the even an officer does seize your weapon, they are required by statute to return it at the end of the encounter as long as it is legal for you to possess it. That said, Dianosis, a member here and on ALOC, had his weapon confiscated by the Dothan(?) police back in early 2010 and it took a letter from a lawyer to get it back.
Of course, if they arrest you they are going to keep it as 'evidence' until it is no longer such.
Kirbinator
Regular Member
Why are you asking someone who isn't a lawyer about laws?
Police Officers -- with very rare exceptions -- are not lawyers. They further are allowed to say anything when talking to you (within certain limits) and only have to tell you a few things (such as, you're under arrest for ...).
Don't ask cops about law. They don't know it. Even if they do, they have no requirement to provide you with it, or even give you correct information.
If a police officer takes your weapon, SHUT UP. Assume you are under arrest. 15-5-31 is invoked from 15-5-30, and for them to start that process, they much have RAS or PC to invoke a Terry stop.
Further, we're not allowed to speak of the NRA here because of personal feelings. Ask anyone in any other forum about the NRA, but don't talk about it here. The Mods Will GET You.
Check out AlabamaOpenCarry.com, and join the forums there... That's where we beat this dead horse to a fine red mist.
Police Officers -- with very rare exceptions -- are not lawyers. They further are allowed to say anything when talking to you (within certain limits) and only have to tell you a few things (such as, you're under arrest for ...).
Don't ask cops about law. They don't know it. Even if they do, they have no requirement to provide you with it, or even give you correct information.
If a police officer takes your weapon, SHUT UP. Assume you are under arrest. 15-5-31 is invoked from 15-5-30, and for them to start that process, they much have RAS or PC to invoke a Terry stop.
Further, we're not allowed to speak of the NRA here because of personal feelings. Ask anyone in any other forum about the NRA, but don't talk about it here. The Mods Will GET You.
Check out AlabamaOpenCarry.com, and join the forums there... That's where we beat this dead horse to a fine red mist.
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Brimstone Baritone
Regular Member
That made my day, Kirb.
DeeGee
Regular Member
I'm still a noob on here but think it's ironic we can't mention a certain rifle association of national persuasion. Lot's of good info on this thread.
That is because people get mad and quit before giving feedback to such an organization.
MilProGuy
Regular Member
You leave your freedom of speech at the door when you log onto any Internet forum.:uhoh:
You never had any "freedom of speech" when in somebody else's house. The only "freedom of speech" you have is that the government is not supposed to put unresonable restrictions on what you say, where you say it, or what you say it about.
Folks that do not understand that the Bill of Rghts only constrains the government would amuse me if they were not so pitiful in their desire to have anarchy when they rage against the very notion of anarchy. (And no, it's not just you. You are merely the example du jour.)
stay safe.
MilProGuy
Regular Member
As I said, you leave your freedom of speech at the door...when you enter any private domain.
It seems the management of this forum does not wish for its members to discuss a certain agency on the open forum, and they are perfectly within their right to restrict whatever types of communication they wish.
Kirbinator
Regular Member
We all have reasons.
hermannr
Regular Member
I X'ed out the organization on purpose...don't ever expect ANY organization to protect YOUR rights. You have to take personal responsibility for your own actions...
That said, are there some orginizations that MAY come to your aid? If it suits THEIR purpose they might. Keep that in mind.
Comment on LE and OC. There are some in the LE community that think they belong to a private elite club, and that only members of their club should have the PRIVILAGE of OC. It is kind of like the Army's Green Beret...only special few can wear that Beret and those that can guard that eliteness.
That these folk do not understand what the law really says is irrelevant, some of them understand the law properly, but they still want Their club exclusive and will try to enforce that want.
I fortunately live in an area where OC is fully accepted as something citizens can do and we have no problem like that...but in the city the probability of such an encounter goes up. KNOW your law!!! That is the only way to keep these problems to a minimum.
Potent Dagger
Regular Member
First off, you are an employee of the business and on private property, and as such you can be openly armed and do not require a permit to carry concealed or openly provided that your employer allows or requires it.
Alabama Statute 13A-11-73 LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL IN VEHICLE OR CONCEALED ON PERSON - REQUIRED
" No person shall carry a pistol in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person, except on his land, in his own abode or fixed place of business, without a license therefor as hereinafter provided.
Since you are in a fixed place of business, you do not require a permit if the property owner allows you to be armed while on private property.
There are two things you need to do, first off is get in writing from your employer that you are allowed to be armed, or required to be armed, while working on the premises. The second thing is to check with the Alcohol Beverage Control Board to see if they have any regulations that say you can not be armed while working in an establishment that serves alcohol.
Lastly, having been a bouncer during my college days at several bars, I fully understand the need to have a means of self defense, however, you should recognize that in the event that the worst case happens, and you do need to use that weapon, the police will question if you have any alcohol in your blood stream, and that will reflect on your judgment in making the determination that using that weapon was reasonable and justified and that your judgment was not distorted. They will almost certainly require you to submit to a blood test for drugs and alcohol, and they will get a warrant to obtain that blood if necessary. Any alcohol or drugs in your blood stream will cause the DA to question your judgment and look harder at the situation, and he may conclude that your judgment was faulty or influenced by even low levels of intoxication. Since you have no control over when the circumstances may require you to make that shooting decision, stick to coffee or soda while working.
Lastly, I can not tell you the level of civil liability you incur being armed in the course of your work in a night club. First off you have a clientèle that came there to drink alcohol, and you are in a rough section of Mobile, which one might conclude does not always draw in the upper crust of Mobile society. While it may be a prudent measure for you to be proactive in defending your self by being armed, I warn you that the consequences of shooting someone has two decidedly different down sides. First off, you are going to face the Mobile County Grand Jury, who will decide if your actions were justified, and even if you are justified, and not indicted by the grand jury, I assure you that someone is out there just waiting to sue your butt off for a wrongful death or injury. This is especially true even if you are justified in using your weapon but end up hitting a bystander by accident, or you hit the bad guy and the bullet exited the bad guy and hits someone else.
When you get sued, and you will most certainly be sued, you will spend a vast sum of money on lawyers fees which will not be covered by your employers premises liability insurance, in fact I highly doubt that your bar owners liability insurance will even cover his legal fees if his policy does not expressly cover an employee who is armed. Under the best of conditions, you will spend as much as 15K to 25K before you ever see the inside of a courtroom, which will take the better part of two years.
The NRA provides some type of insurance that would help pay the costs of criminal or civil litigation for people who used a gun in self defense, under certain circumstances. but I do not know if it would cover a bar employee. If I were you I would look into getting some form of insurance that will cover you under these circumstances. Here is a link to that liability coverage from the NRA, trust me, if you use your gun you will be glad to have it.
http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm
Alabama Statute 13A-11-73 LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL IN VEHICLE OR CONCEALED ON PERSON - REQUIRED
" No person shall carry a pistol in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person, except on his land, in his own abode or fixed place of business, without a license therefor as hereinafter provided.
Since you are in a fixed place of business, you do not require a permit if the property owner allows you to be armed while on private property.
There are two things you need to do, first off is get in writing from your employer that you are allowed to be armed, or required to be armed, while working on the premises. The second thing is to check with the Alcohol Beverage Control Board to see if they have any regulations that say you can not be armed while working in an establishment that serves alcohol.
Lastly, having been a bouncer during my college days at several bars, I fully understand the need to have a means of self defense, however, you should recognize that in the event that the worst case happens, and you do need to use that weapon, the police will question if you have any alcohol in your blood stream, and that will reflect on your judgment in making the determination that using that weapon was reasonable and justified and that your judgment was not distorted. They will almost certainly require you to submit to a blood test for drugs and alcohol, and they will get a warrant to obtain that blood if necessary. Any alcohol or drugs in your blood stream will cause the DA to question your judgment and look harder at the situation, and he may conclude that your judgment was faulty or influenced by even low levels of intoxication. Since you have no control over when the circumstances may require you to make that shooting decision, stick to coffee or soda while working.
Lastly, I can not tell you the level of civil liability you incur being armed in the course of your work in a night club. First off you have a clientèle that came there to drink alcohol, and you are in a rough section of Mobile, which one might conclude does not always draw in the upper crust of Mobile society. While it may be a prudent measure for you to be proactive in defending your self by being armed, I warn you that the consequences of shooting someone has two decidedly different down sides. First off, you are going to face the Mobile County Grand Jury, who will decide if your actions were justified, and even if you are justified, and not indicted by the grand jury, I assure you that someone is out there just waiting to sue your butt off for a wrongful death or injury. This is especially true even if you are justified in using your weapon but end up hitting a bystander by accident, or you hit the bad guy and the bullet exited the bad guy and hits someone else.
When you get sued, and you will most certainly be sued, you will spend a vast sum of money on lawyers fees which will not be covered by your employers premises liability insurance, in fact I highly doubt that your bar owners liability insurance will even cover his legal fees if his policy does not expressly cover an employee who is armed. Under the best of conditions, you will spend as much as 15K to 25K before you ever see the inside of a courtroom, which will take the better part of two years.
The NRA provides some type of insurance that would help pay the costs of criminal or civil litigation for people who used a gun in self defense, under certain circumstances. but I do not know if it would cover a bar employee. If I were you I would look into getting some form of insurance that will cover you under these circumstances. Here is a link to that liability coverage from the NRA, trust me, if you use your gun you will be glad to have it.
http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm
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Kirbinator
Regular Member
HALT! HAMMERZEIT!
STATE v REID (1840) “Under the provision of our constitution, we incline to the opinion that the Legislature cannot inhibit the citizen from bearing arms openly, because it authorizes him to bear them for the purposes of defending himself and the State, and it is only when carried openly, that they can be efficiently used for defence.”
QUARTERLY REPORT ATTORNEY GENERAL VOL.79 (1955) pgs. 31-35 “***it is my opinion that a person may carry an unconcealed and unlicensed pistol anywhere, either on his own property, ***, on the public highways, public property or the land of another person without violating either Section 163 (now codified as § 13A-11-52) or Section 175 (now codified as § 13A-11-73).”[This AG opinion is also referenced in Looney v State (1962)]
KJ v STATE,(1997) “.***this court held that § 13A-11-73 does not prohibit carrying an unlicensed pistol if the pistol is unconcealed and the person is on foot.”
MORRIS v STATE (1977) “It is to be observed that this law prohibits carrying a pistol (concealed or not) in any vehicle or "concealed on or about his person, except . . . without a license therefor . . “[**4] . ." It does not prohibit an unconcealed pistol. Acts 1956, 2d Session, No. 43, p. 336. It is immaterial that defendant did or did not have a pistol permit. He had a right to carry the pistol unconcealed at the time and place of arrest. Defendant was under no duty to submit to any other than a lawful arrest.
As the state determined in 1840 with State v Reid, "the Legislature cannot inhibit the citizen from bearing arms openly".
I wouldn't ask. Either you are or you aren't. If you aren't, then your employer is responsible for your personal security -- which, of course, is something he cannot guarantee.
No such law in the state of Alabama, nor can there be:
[quote="Code of Alabama of 1975, Title 11"
Section 11-80-11
Regulation of gun shows, etc.; authority to bring or settle certain lawsuits reserved to Attorney General.
(a) No county or municipal corporation, instrumentality, or political subdivision thereof, by ordinance, resolution, or other enactment, shall regulate in any manner gun shows, the possession, ownership, transport, carrying, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, registration or use of firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, firearms dealers, or dealers in firearm components.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under law to regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the municipality or the authority a county has under law enacted prior to August 1, 2000, to regulate the discharge of firearms within the jurisdiction of the county.
(2) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority of the state, a county, or a municipality to assess, enforce, and collect sales taxes, use taxes, and gross receipts taxes in the nature of sales taxes as defined by Section 40-2A-3(8), on the retail sale of firearms and ammunition or to assess, enforce, and collect business licenses from firearms or ammunition manufacturers, trade associations, distributors, or dealers for the privilege of engaging in business.
Further, nothing herein shall exempt any business which uses firearms or ammunition in the conduct of its business or any business which leases or sells firearms or ammunition from the provisions of county and municipal planning and zoning laws, as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are not used to circumvent the intent of subsection (a).
This section shall not be construed to limit or restrict the power of a municipality to adopt or enforce ordinances which make the violation of a state firearm law a violation of a municipal ordinance to the same extent as other state law violations.
(c) The authority to bring or settle any lawsuit in which the state has an exclusive interest or right to recover against any firearm or ammunition manufacturer, trade association, or dealer, and the authority to bring or settle any lawsuit on behalf of any governmental unit created by or pursuant to an act of the Legislature or the Constitution of Alabama of 1901, or any department, agency, or authority thereof, for damages, abatement, injunctive relief, or other equitable relief resulting from or relating to the design, manufacture, marketing, or lawful sale of firearms or ammunition, or both, shall be reserved exclusively to the Attorney General, by and with the consent of the Governor. This section shall not prohibit a county or municipal corporation from bringing an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision or local governmental authority.
(Act 2000-762, p. 1744, §1.)[/quote]
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Potent Dagger
Regular Member
Not so quick my friend, you can not cherry pick words out of an entire statue and construe them to mean what you want.
I stand by my statement that as he is on private property, he can carry in any manner he wishes to as long as the property owner has no objection. As for the ABC board rules and regs, they control the issuance of licenses to sell alcohol, and if those regulations state that a server of alcohol can not be armed, that is a whole other issue, since I am not familiar with the ABC rules, I simply suggested he research it in order to avoid the possibility of his employers license being suspended or revoked. The Supreme Court has ruled dancing naked is free speech but try getting a liqour license for a strip bar.
As for the utter butchery you engage in with respect to 11-80-11 is pretty disingenuous, the statue only deals with gun manufactures and dealers,,,it has nothing to do with the situation I was discussing.
As for getting in writing permission to be armed while on the private property of his employer, lets say a shooting happens and an innocent bystander is shot by the club employee,,,,,,,when it comes to lawsuit time do you really expect the owner to admit he encouraged much less allowed his employees to be armed.....that will make him very popular with his liability carrier won't it,,, I can see it all now,,,,,,first a letter of denial of coverage and cancelation of policy, and soon thereafter, no more nighclub. A liability carrier gives not one blessed damn about anyones right to be armed, they set the conditions of what liability issues they cover and what they will not cover and I highly doubt any insurance liability carrier who is covering a bar will cover a shooting by an armed employee, that is why security companies who hire out armed guards have to get special liability coverage.
I stand by my statement that as he is on private property, he can carry in any manner he wishes to as long as the property owner has no objection. As for the ABC board rules and regs, they control the issuance of licenses to sell alcohol, and if those regulations state that a server of alcohol can not be armed, that is a whole other issue, since I am not familiar with the ABC rules, I simply suggested he research it in order to avoid the possibility of his employers license being suspended or revoked. The Supreme Court has ruled dancing naked is free speech but try getting a liqour license for a strip bar.
As for the utter butchery you engage in with respect to 11-80-11 is pretty disingenuous, the statue only deals with gun manufactures and dealers,,,it has nothing to do with the situation I was discussing.
As for getting in writing permission to be armed while on the private property of his employer, lets say a shooting happens and an innocent bystander is shot by the club employee,,,,,,,when it comes to lawsuit time do you really expect the owner to admit he encouraged much less allowed his employees to be armed.....that will make him very popular with his liability carrier won't it,,, I can see it all now,,,,,,first a letter of denial of coverage and cancelation of policy, and soon thereafter, no more nighclub. A liability carrier gives not one blessed damn about anyones right to be armed, they set the conditions of what liability issues they cover and what they will not cover and I highly doubt any insurance liability carrier who is covering a bar will cover a shooting by an armed employee, that is why security companies who hire out armed guards have to get special liability coverage.
Treborfoot
Regular Member
Of course you can...Except it is not called cherry picking...It is called citing the pertinent parts...You do not pick out parts that are not applicable.
I do not have to ask my boss for permission if I am the one in charge or in control of the business/property....He can fire me or discipline me...But my boss does not make state laws...
Since you're so smart ( sarcasm meant and you cite cases not pertinent to your arguments ) explain this Alabama Statue.
Section 13A-11-52
Carrying pistol on premises not his own; who may carry pistol.
Except as otherwise provided in this article, no person shall carry a pistol about his person on premises not his own or under his control; but this section shall not apply to any sheriff or his deputy or police officer of an incorporated town or city in the lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to United States marshal or his deputies, rural free delivery mail carriers in the discharge of their duties as such, bonded constables in the discharge of their duties as such, conductors, railway mail clerks and express messengers in the discharge of their duties.
Kirbinator
Regular Member
The private property issue is pertinent.
Ergo, if I enter Bill's Stop'n'Rob while armed for a cold drink, I'm fine as long as Bill doesn't care or notice. As Bill owns the Stop'n'Rob, he's allowed to make whatever rules he wants, just as I'm free not to do business with Bill.
Were I Bill's employee, I'd have to know Bill pretty well before discussing the issue. Bill is liable to say "no guns" unless Bill has been to an open-carry meet up, or had the store robbed while several armed men were present. People always react negatively when you ask, "may I?" However, you may lose your job if you just show up armed.
Either way, that's moot because Bill has indicated that he's fine with you CCing. If he's fine with you CCing, then he's fine with you OCing.
Were I working as a bouncer in a place where alcohol was served, I'd invest in a serious retention holster. And a vest. People are remarkably stupid when they are drunk.
So in a nutshell, from the law perspective, there's nothing new on the table than there was before. If the owner is OK with CC, the law hasn't changed anything about OC. You'll probably find that -- if you do carry -- you're going to find that the patrons won't test you as much, except for the 0.01% that's just born stupid. Either way, the quoted section of law above only applies to places where you're not the agent of the owner. In this case, you are acting as the agent of the owner, which makes that law one that should probably want to know.
I can diagram a sentence. Can you?
Ergo, if I enter Bill's Stop'n'Rob while armed for a cold drink, I'm fine as long as Bill doesn't care or notice. As Bill owns the Stop'n'Rob, he's allowed to make whatever rules he wants, just as I'm free not to do business with Bill.
Were I Bill's employee, I'd have to know Bill pretty well before discussing the issue. Bill is liable to say "no guns" unless Bill has been to an open-carry meet up, or had the store robbed while several armed men were present. People always react negatively when you ask, "may I?" However, you may lose your job if you just show up armed.
Either way, that's moot because Bill has indicated that he's fine with you CCing. If he's fine with you CCing, then he's fine with you OCing.
Were I working as a bouncer in a place where alcohol was served, I'd invest in a serious retention holster. And a vest. People are remarkably stupid when they are drunk.
So in a nutshell, from the law perspective, there's nothing new on the table than there was before. If the owner is OK with CC, the law hasn't changed anything about OC. You'll probably find that -- if you do carry -- you're going to find that the patrons won't test you as much, except for the 0.01% that's just born stupid. Either way, the quoted section of law above only applies to places where you're not the agent of the owner. In this case, you are acting as the agent of the owner, which makes that law one that should probably want to know.
I can diagram a sentence. Can you?
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