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Thread: Holster question

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    Holster question

    Would wearing a thigh rig be considered "going armed to the terror of the people"?

    I'm asking this because as I do not yet OC. I still need to get a suitable gun for carrying period. I am in the process of contesting the denial of my CCP right now. With the cold weather coming up and the jackets and such that go along with it, I just don't want to get my balls busted if my hip holster is not "open enough" should my jacket cover it partially.

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    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
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    The gun is what would be used to try and justify the charge, the holster has nothing to do with it. Previously people discussed this, it does attract more attention and possibly more MWAG calls, but the holster has nothing to do with the justification for arrest under that common law that needs to be removed from the police bag of tricks. Download the flyer and know your stuff and any interactions caused by a drop leg holster will be the same as any other OC encounter. Good luck getting your CHP issue resolved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REDFIVE48 View Post
    The gun is what would be used to try and justify the charge, the holster has nothing to do with it. Previously people discussed this, it does attract more attention and possibly more MWAG calls, but the holster has nothing to do with the justification for arrest under that common law that needs to be removed from the police bag of tricks. Download the flyer and know your stuff and any interactions caused by a drop leg holster will be the same as any other OC encounter. Good luck getting your CHP issue resolved.
    Thanks man. Figured as much. Knew it would draw more attention, just wasn't sure if they could interpret a "tactical rig" as "threatening". Plus the rig would give me somewhere to carry the flyers with me.

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    Regular Member ImJustMylan's Avatar
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    I too have thought about a thigh holster.. It does look very tactical no matter how you think about it. If you're not in a LEO uniform I would just pass on that idea.. I decided to just not get it and go with the Blackhawk Serpa holster.

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    If you can see ANY part of the gun than its NOT concealed. I use a serpa blackhawk. I do have a CHP but OC 95% of the time. I can still OC with my large Columbia winter jacket.

    Who cares if someone is "scared" that you have a tactical rig on. If you walk and act like you have been carrying for years, you will have no problems. Walk confidently. Don't "grip" the handle while walking around. Have a voice recorder, running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muccione View Post
    .....Who cares if someone is "scared" that you have a tactical rig on. If you walk and act like you have been carrying for years, you will have no problems. Walk confidently. Don't "grip" the handle while walking around. Have a voice recorder, running.
    My whole take on the tactical holster is that it looks unfamiliar to most. So its draws a lot more attention to people. Having a voice recorder is great but that means you're anticipating that you are going to run into problems. Who willingly wants to be taken as a threat and face possibly being kicked out of an establishment and/or having PD called?

    NOT ME....... NOT...........ME

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    Quote Originally Posted by muccione View Post
    If you can see ANY part of the gun than its NOT concealed. I use a serpa blackhawk. I do have a CHP but OC 95% of the time. I can still OC with my large Columbia winter jacket.

    Who cares if someone is "scared" that you have a tactical rig on. If you walk and act like you have been carrying for years, you will have no problems. Walk confidently. Don't "grip" the handle while walking around. Have a voice recorder, running.
    I guess that it's the "part of the gun showing" that has me asking the question. For example with the Serpa given here...the whole lower portion (in carrying position) is encased in the holster. With just the lower few inches of holster itself showing, is that considered as the "gun" being in plain sight?

    I could personally care less what "the general public" thinks of me carrying, but don't need the legal hassle. Have no intention of walking around resting my hand on the butt. That's just asking for it. IMO that's he equivalent of walking with a pocket knife held in your hand. Yeah it's still folded, but you are implying your intent to use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by ImJustMylan View Post
    My whole take on the tactical holster is that it looks unfamiliar to most. So its draws a lot more attention to people. Having a voice recorder is great but that means you're anticipating that you are going to run into problems. Who willingly wants to be taken as a threat and face possibly being kicked out of an establishment and/or having PD called?

    NOT ME....... NOT...........ME
    Kinda my point. Yes you are legally carrying openly, but if a LEO decides to bust my balls...."innocent until proven guilty" only happens after you are arrested, spend some time in jail awaiting arraignment, hire a lawyer, post bail, then defend yourself in court. (yeah, I know...worst case scenario) Now your innocence now just cost you how much?




    I was actually planning on getting a Serpa (whether drop leg or belt). Even when I do get my CCP, I'd prefer to OC. My line of thinking is that if there were a possible threat and you are CC, they do not realize that you are equipped to defend yourself until AFTER you have drawn your weapon. That opens that can of worms. If you are OC'ing, it is known beforehand that you can defend yourself and most likely the threat would never even present itself. There are of course situations where CC is the better option, but just saying in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnighToker View Post
    ......I was actually planning on getting a Serpa (whether drop leg or belt). Even when I do get my CCP, I'd prefer to OC. My line of thinking is that if there were a possible threat and you are CC, they do not realize that you are equipped to defend yourself until AFTER you have drawn your weapon. That opens that can of worms. If you are OC'ing, it is known beforehand that you can defend yourself and most likely the threat would never even present itself. There are of course situations where CC is the better option, but just saying in general.

    Agreed ^^^^example: Lets say a 98lb nerd had a 400 million dollar winning lottery ticket in his hands.. No one was around.. Would you knock him out and take his ticket?

    Now lets say that he had a Glock on his hip.... Is 400 million dollars worth losing your life? I think not!

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by ImJustMylan View Post
    Agreed ^^^^example: Lets say a 98lb nerd had a 400 million dollar winning lottery ticket in his hands.. No one was around.. Would you knock him out and take his ticket?

    Now lets say that he had a Glock on his hip.... Is 400 million dollars worth losing your life? I think not!
    I don't know for 400 mil I might have to think about it. LOL He's only 98 lbs and its holstered and at least one hand is occupied with the ticket which is more than likely the one on the same side as his weapon. That will slow his draw. Not that I'm a criminal but it is 400 mil.
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

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    Regular Member ImJustMylan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carry24/7 View Post
    I don't know for 400 mil I might have to think about it. LOL He's only 98 lbs and its holstered and at least one hand is occupied with the ticket which is more than likely the one on the same side as his weapon. That will slow his draw. Not that I'm a criminal but it is 400 mil.
    LOL!!!! Yeah I had to read that again... Im 6'5 290... Im pretty sure i could do it... and get away with the ticket...


    On the record.... IM NOT A CRIMINAL OR WOULD ACTUALLY DO THAT

    Off the record... IM RICH!!!

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    Just a bump for an unanswered question...

    If it's just the lower half (assuming a good portion of it) of the holster showing, is that considered as the gun itself being in the open?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnighToker View Post
    Just a bump for an unanswered question...

    If it's just the lower half (assuming a good portion of it) of the holster showing, is that considered as the gun itself being in the open?

    In that same question u could say the top half is showing as it would be in a holster. Its not fully showing but is it concealed?

    I've talked to several officers about NC definition of "concealed" and every one had there own ideas of what is "concealed". I still haven't found a statute that identifies what "concealment" is defined as. The word "concealment" seems to be generalized as "covered" (ex. under shirt, under seat, anywhere its not fully visible and easily accessible.) But then again, it is at the Officers discretion as to what they deem as concealed. They can arrest you if they want then leave it to the courts to decide. But I wouldn't even want to go that far.

    If they cant recognize that part as being a gun i wouldn't carry in that manner.

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    I usually OC with a serpa holster on the belt. but I have OCed in public with my drop leg holster a few times, a bunch more looks, but no cops....

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    Think about this

    Cop tells Judge "Yes I walked passed the guy and saw he had a concealed gun".

    Judge. If you can see ANY part of the gun how was it concealed? Unless you have x-ray eyes. Case dismissed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muccione View Post
    Think about this

    Cop tells Judge "Yes I walked passed the guy and saw he had a concealed gun".

    Judge. If you can see ANY part of the gun how was it concealed? Unless you have x-ray eyes. Case dismissed.

    LOL...point well taken

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJustMylan View Post
    In that same question u could say the top half is showing as it would be in a holster. Its not fully showing but is it concealed?

    I've talked to several officers about NC definition of "concealed" and every one had there own ideas of what is "concealed". I still haven't found a statute that identifies what "concealment" is defined as. The word "concealment" seems to be generalized as "covered" (ex. under shirt, under seat, anywhere its not fully visible and easily accessible.) But then again, it is at the Officers discretion as to what they deem as concealed. They can arrest you if they want then leave it to the courts to decide. But I wouldn't even want to go that far.

    If they cant recognize that part as being a gun i wouldn't carry in that manner.

    You are correct. Nowhere in the NCGS is "concealed" actually defined.

    The Attorney General, however, does address the "definition" of "concealed" in a less vague way. In the NC Gun Laws brochure published by the NC AG, if a firearm is carried, transported, or worn in a manner so that it is NOT "readily recognizable as a firearm", then it is considered "concealed" by the AG.

    So a 1911 in an IWB holster, work with you rshirt tucking in your pants but th ebutt of the gun sticking out and easily identifiable as such would NOT be concealed, an would be a 100% legal form of OC.

    However, a tiny derringer mounted in a belt buckle, so that it looks like it's ornamental (and not a functional firearm) even though you could see 100% of the firearm, would be considered "concealed" because an average person would not know if it was a real gun or just a fancy belt buckle.

    A Glock 17 in a Serpa OWB holster, that is covered by an overcoat, but has the bottom 2 inches of the holster sticking out from under the coat WOULD be "concealed".

    But a Taurus Judge in a shoulder holster worn OVER a shirt so everyone could see it would NOT be "concealed" even if your arm covered most of the gun, because the parts that would be visible would be "readily recognized" as a firearm...

    It's a mess here in NC, and the fact that the ONLY place the definition is addressed is in Case Law and Common Law (and NOT in Statute) makes it even harder for Law-Abiding citizen to stay within the law, and it makes it EASIER for dirty or power-tripping LEOs to twist the law to their benefit in their pursuit of harassment of OCers.

    Know the law.
    Carry (and USE) a recorder.
    Have a lawyer on speed-dial (or at least carry a lawyers business card in your wallet)

    Carry on, and good luck!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You are correct. Nowhere in the NCGS is "concealed" actually defined.

    The Attorney General, however, does address the "definition" of "concealed" in a less vague way. In the NC Gun Laws brochure published by the NC AG, if a firearm is carried, transported, or worn in a manner so that it is NOT "readily recognizable as a firearm", then it is considered "concealed" by the AG.

    So a 1911 in an IWB holster, work with you rshirt tucking in your pants but th ebutt of the gun sticking out and easily identifiable as such would NOT be concealed, an would be a 100% legal form of OC.

    However, a tiny derringer mounted in a belt buckle, so that it looks like it's ornamental (and not a functional firearm) even though you could see 100% of the firearm, would be considered "concealed" because an average person would not know if it was a real gun or just a fancy belt buckle.

    A Glock 17 in a Serpa OWB holster, that is covered by an overcoat, but has the bottom 2 inches of the holster sticking out from under the coat WOULD be "concealed".

    But a Taurus Judge in a shoulder holster worn OVER a shirt so everyone could see it would NOT be "concealed" even if your arm covered most of the gun, because the parts that would be visible would be "readily recognized" as a firearm...

    It's a mess here in NC, and the fact that the ONLY place the definition is addressed is in Case Law and Common Law (and NOT in Statute) makes it even harder for Law-Abiding citizen to stay within the law, and it makes it EASIER for dirty or power-tripping LEOs to twist the law to their benefit in their pursuit of harassment of OCers.

    Know the law.
    Carry (and USE) a recorder.
    Have a lawyer on speed-dial (or at least carry a lawyers business card in your wallet)

    Carry on, and good luck!
    I guess that's exactly my concern. Especially with the winter months coming, the chance of my jacket dropping to cover the actual butt of the gun raises the question of if it's concealed or not. Yes it is obviously a holster (say a Serpa) that is sticking out the bottom, but is that enough to stand on it's own? Or maybe switch to a Fobus EVO where the barrel is exposed??? (not a fan of that personally)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnighToker View Post
    Would wearing a thigh rig be considered "going armed to the terror of the people"?

    I'm asking this because as I do not yet OC. I still need to get a suitable gun for carrying period. I am in the process of contesting the denial of my CCP right now. With the cold weather coming up and the jackets and such that go along with it, I just don't want to get my balls busted if my hip holster is not "open enough" should my jacket cover it partially.
    though I live in Florida and never see OC here, I've seen quite a few people OCing and a though rig on youtube and on the news on OC coverage. It may look a little out there to some people but if it comfortable to you I say go for it. I don't think you'll come off threatening, but some people may look at you like you're wearing those "finger toe" shoes!
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    I got a good deal on a Serpa level-3 thigh-rig holster for my Glock 23 several months ago & jumped on it. Its comfortable, and easy to deploy the handgun from it, and its VERY secure, BUT.... I've found that my cajones aren't quite big enough to carry in this manner outside my home yet
    Carry on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJustMylan View Post
    My whole take on the tactical holster is that it looks unfamiliar to most. So its draws a lot more attention to people. Having a voice recorder is great but that means you're anticipating that you are going to run into problems. Who willingly wants to be taken as a threat and face possibly being kicked out of an establishment and/or having PD called?

    NOT ME....... NOT...........ME
    i don't know if you are being sarcastic. but just saying, i carry a gun, because i am anticipating trouble. i carry a DVR to CMA, in case it happens

    DREAMER, i could find it, but do you have the four things necessary to apply to GTTOTP law .

    TOKER, you don't need to tell what it is that held you up on your CHP, but is it something that would restrict you from legally carrying. if not, don't worry about do something legal. remember GTTTOP, is actually less likely than being charge with reckless driving, which i have seen people that crossed the fog line being charged with
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    i don't know if you are being sarcastic. but just saying, i carry a gun, because i am anticipating trouble. i carry a DVR to CMA, in case it happens

    DREAMER, i could find it, but do you have the four things necessary to apply to GTTOTP law .

    TOKER, you don't need to tell what it is that held you up on your CHP, but is it something that would restrict you from legally carrying. if not, don't worry about do something legal. remember GTTTOP, is actually less likely than being charge with reckless driving, which i have seen people that crossed the fog line being charged with
    Nope. They actually issued a PPP to me two months before I applied for my CHP.

    OK, have to ask the stupid question here...what is GTTOTP?
    Last edited by MidnighToker; 10-20-2011 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnighToker View Post
    OK, have to ask the stupid question here...what is GTTOTP?
    It's actually GATTOTP - Going Armed To The Terror of the Public

    Pretty much walking down a street and brandishing a gun. Which is not what we do - our guns are holstered.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatting View Post
    It's actually GATTOTP - Going Armed To The Terror of the Public

    Pretty much walking down a street and brandishing a gun. Which is not what we do - our guns are holstered.

    This post is for "dmatting" and "papabear", and any other folks on OCDO who are confused about our stupid, outdated, and arguably illegal "common law violation" of "GAttTotP".


    Actually the NC "GAttTotP common-law violation is NOT the same as "brandishing"--in fact is, from a leglistic POV, the exact opposite.

    In most states that actually have "brandishing" statutes (like VA) the act of "brandishing" is very clearly and specifically defined.

    In NC however, there is no official law, code or statute prohibiting "brandishing". the GAttTotP violation is based on Common Law case precedents, and the case law behind it can be traced all the way back to 13th century English Common Law.

    In NC, GAttTotP (the "P" actually stands for "People", not "public" as is commonly stated...) has been defined thus:

    By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself/herself with any unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public highways in a manner to cause terror to others.
    Now, this is a very complex sentence, with 4 distinct qualifying phrases, ALL FOUR of which must be met for one to be guilty of this violation.

    Let be break it down, grammar-school style for y'all... ;-)

    By common law in North Carolina,

    (meaning this is NOT a Statutory law or a Code--it is a convention based on court case decisions over decades or even centuries of common law)


    (1) it is unlawful for a person to arm himself/herself with any unusual and dangerous weapon,
    (meaning it shall be considered a legally punishable violation for a person to equip themselves with a weapon--and the courts have ruled that this covers a LOT of things, including firearms and swords, HOWEVER, you ALSO have to meet the other THREE conditions for there to be a violation...)
    (2) for the purpose of terrifying others,
    (meaning the person being charged had the specific intent of carrying the above-mentioned weapon in order to terriy other people--not for self-defense, or sporting purposes, or as some sort of public exercise of his 1A and 2A rights. And even if you meet #1 and #2, you STILL have to meet the other TWO conditions for this charge to "stick"...)

    (3)
    and go about on public highways
    (meaning you have to be carrying the above-mentioned weapon on a road or public sidewalk. NOT on private property (your own or someone else's). Not in a parking lot of a private business. For this charge to be applicable, you HAVE to meet #1, #2, and #4, AND be doing all those things while on a public road, highway, sidewalk, etc...)

    (4)
    in a manner to cause terror to others.
    (meaning that the WAY you are carrying this above-mentioned weapon has to be such that any reasonable person might feel threatened. It could be in a holster, but you are shouting that "I'm gonna shoot that dirty so-and-so". Maybe you are resting your hand on the grips and muttering to yourself. Maybe you are holding it and waving it around. Or maybe you have it tucked into your pants, "Mexican Carry" style and are shouldering your way through a crowd or being really rude and obnoxious to other people. All that matters is that the way you are carrying or handling the firearm would give a normal, rational citizen cause to think that you were a SERIOUS danger.

    It should be noted that the courts have rules that OC in a holster, absent grabbing the grips, pointing to it, or otherwise intentionally doing something to make people notice that you are carrying a firearm does NOT qualify as meeting #4...)



    Hopefully that clears "Going Armed to the Terror of the People."

    The "benchmark" case in NC on this violation is "State vs. Robert S. Huntley" from the spring of 1843.

    http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html


    The most IMPORTANT part of understanding the GAttTotP violation in NC is that this is a "crime of intent". This means that th violator had to have the SPECIFIC intention of doing the things outlined in the law as being conditions for the violation. This charge is NOT based on the feelings, perceptions, prejudices or tender sensibilities of an outside observer.

    Just because some bed-wetting soccer mom doesn't like the idea that a Law-Abiding Citizen has taken a personal and active role in providing for their own personal protection and self-defense, does NOT mean you can be charged with GAttTotP. Her feelings about your lawfully-carried firearm have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on the case.

    Just because some carpet-bagging Yankee transplant to our fine State can't understand that Open Carry of Defensive weapons is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT with a history that goes back in common law at least 8 CENTURIES and their cognitive dissonance has them all dizzy and confused at the sight of a Citizen with the ability to defend themselves without relying on the non-existent "guarantee" that the police will protect them (which they CAN NOT, and are in fact, INCAPABLE of doing, and under no legal obligation to do!...), has NO BEARING whatsoever on this charge.

    It all comes down to the INTENT and ACTIONS of the person being charged.

    If you are a lawful OCer, carrying in a proper holster, conducting yourself in a polite, normal, and lawful manner, then there is NO WAY that this charge can be applied. End of discussion. Case Dismissed...

    Consider yourselves educated. In fact, you are now WAY more educated than about 90% of the LEOs in NC as to the subtleties of GAttTotP. Please use your new-found knowledge wisely. ;-)

    Carry on...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-21-2011 at 06:07 PM.
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    Thank you for that Dreamer. It does clear up quite a bit, but makes some a bit fuzzy to me at the same time.

    Back to one of my earlier posts...Say I am OCing with a OTP hip holster..use the Serpa for an example. The winter months are now coming up which generally means heaver/longer jackets. I'm in the middle here... Say that the jacket is long enough to cover up the upper half of the gun/holster. The grip would obviously be concealed as well as an "identifiable" trigger etc. If I were to play it safe to OC and tuck my jacket behind the grips, could that be considered I dunno, "flaunting" it? It will most certainly draw more attention to it.

    Now that I think about it, I kind of answered my own question there. Kinda similar to the OP and wearing a thigh rig. NO it's not subtle, but is undeniably OC. And as you stated, if it's "just there" and not being handled, pointed to, rested on, etc, then it's, well "just there".


    LOL...can't WAIT to get the wife's reaction to a thigh rig though. Think I'll stick with the hip.

  25. #25
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    Awesome breakdown Dreamer!
    Last edited by Verd; 10-21-2011 at 12:21 AM.
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