Holster question

papa bear said:

i don't know if you are being sarcastic. but just saying, i carry a gun, because i am anticipating trouble. i carry a DVR to CMA, in case it happens

DREAMER, i could find it, but do you have the four things necessary to apply to GTTOTP law .

TOKER, you don't need to tell what it is that held you up on your CHP, but is it something that would restrict you from legally carrying. if not, don't worry about do something legal. remember GTTTOP, is actually less likely than being charge with reckless driving, which i have seen people that crossed the fog line being charged with

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Nope. They actually issued a PPP to me two months before I applied for my CHP.

OK, have to ask the stupid question here...what is GTTOTP?

MidnighToker said:

OK, have to ask the stupid question here...what is GTTOTP?

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It's actually GATTOTP - Going Armed To The Terror of the Public

Pretty much walking down a street and brandishing a gun. Which is not what we do - our guns are holstered.

dmatting said:

It's actually GATTOTP - Going Armed To The Terror of the Public

Pretty much walking down a street and brandishing a gun. Which is not what we do - our guns are holstered.

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This post is for "dmatting" and "papabear", and any other folks on OCDO who are confused about our stupid, outdated, and arguably illegal "common law violation" of "GAttTotP".


Actually the NC "GAttTotP common-law violation is NOT the same as "brandishing"--in fact is, from a leglistic POV, the exact opposite.

In most states that actually have "brandishing" statutes (like VA) the act of "brandishing" is very clearly and specifically defined.

In NC however, there is no official law, code or statute prohibiting "brandishing". the GAttTotP violation is based on Common Law case precedents, and the case law behind it can be traced all the way back to 13th century English Common Law.

In NC, GAttTotP (the "P" actually stands for "People", not "public" as is commonly stated...) has been defined thus:

By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself/herself with any unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public highways in a manner to cause terror to others.

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Now, this is a very complex sentence, with 4 distinct qualifying phrases, ALL FOUR of which must be met for one to be guilty of this violation.

Let be break it down, grammar-school style for y'all... ;-)

By common law in North Carolina,
(meaning this is NOT a Statutory law or a Code--it is a convention based on court case decisions over decades or even centuries of common law)

(1) it is unlawful for a person to arm himself/herself with any unusual and dangerous weapon,
(meaning it shall be considered a legally punishable violation for a person to equip themselves with a weapon--and the courts have ruled that this covers a LOT of things, including firearms and swords, HOWEVER, you ALSO have to meet the other THREE conditions for there to be a violation...)
(2) for the purpose of terrifying others,
(meaning the person being charged had the specific intent of carrying the above-mentioned weapon in order to terriy other people--not for self-defense, or sporting purposes, or as some sort of public exercise of his 1A and 2A rights. And even if you meet #1 and #2, you STILL have to meet the other TWO conditions for this charge to "stick"...)

(3) and go about on public highways
(meaning you have to be carrying the above-mentioned weapon on a road or public sidewalk. NOT on private property (your own or someone else's). Not in a parking lot of a private business. For this charge to be applicable, you HAVE to meet #1, #2, and #4, AND be doing all those things while on a public road, highway, sidewalk, etc...)

(4) in a manner to cause terror to others.
(meaning that the WAY you are carrying this above-mentioned weapon has to be such that any reasonable person might feel threatened. It could be in a holster, but you are shouting that "I'm gonna shoot that dirty so-and-so". Maybe you are resting your hand on the grips and muttering to yourself. Maybe you are holding it and waving it around. Or maybe you have it tucked into your pants, "Mexican Carry" style and are shouldering your way through a crowd or being really rude and obnoxious to other people. All that matters is that the way you are carrying or handling the firearm would give a normal, rational citizen cause to think that you were a SERIOUS danger.

It should be noted that the courts have rules that OC in a holster, absent grabbing the grips, pointing to it, or otherwise intentionally doing something to make people notice that you are carrying a firearm does NOT qualify as meeting #4...)


Hopefully that clears "Going Armed to the Terror of the People."

The "benchmark" case in NC on this violation is "State vs. Robert S. Huntley" from the spring of 1843.

http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html


The most IMPORTANT part of understanding the GAttTotP violation in NC is that this is a "crime of intent". This means that th violator had to have the SPECIFIC intention of doing the things outlined in the law as being conditions for the violation. This charge is NOT based on the feelings, perceptions, prejudices or tender sensibilities of an outside observer.

Just because some bed-wetting soccer mom doesn't like the idea that a Law-Abiding Citizen has taken a personal and active role in providing for their own personal protection and self-defense, does NOT mean you can be charged with GAttTotP. Her feelings about your lawfully-carried firearm have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on the case.

Just because some carpet-bagging Yankee transplant to our fine State can't understand that Open Carry of Defensive weapons is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT with a history that goes back in common law at least 8 CENTURIES and their cognitive dissonance has them all dizzy and confused at the sight of a Citizen with the ability to defend themselves without relying on the non-existent "guarantee" that the police will protect them (which they CAN NOT, and are in fact, INCAPABLE of doing, and under no legal obligation to do!...), has NO BEARING whatsoever on this charge.

It all comes down to the INTENT and ACTIONS of the person being charged.

If you are a lawful OCer, carrying in a proper holster, conducting yourself in a polite, normal, and lawful manner, then there is NO WAY that this charge can be applied. End of discussion. Case Dismissed...

Consider yourselves educated. In fact, you are now WAY more educated than about 90% of the LEOs in NC as to the subtleties of GAttTotP. Please use your new-found knowledge wisely. ;-)

Carry on...

Thank you for that Dreamer. It does clear up quite a bit, but makes some a bit fuzzy to me at the same time.

Back to one of my earlier posts...Say I am OCing with a OTP hip holster..use the Serpa for an example. The winter months are now coming up which generally means heaver/longer jackets. I'm in the middle here... Say that the jacket is long enough to cover up the upper half of the gun/holster. The grip would obviously be concealed as well as an "identifiable" trigger etc. If I were to play it safe to OC and tuck my jacket behind the grips, could that be considered I dunno, "flaunting" it? It will most certainly draw more attention to it.

Now that I think about it, I kind of answered my own question there. Kinda similar to the OP and wearing a thigh rig. NO it's not subtle, but is undeniably OC. And as you stated, if it's "just there" and not being handled, pointed to, rested on, etc, then it's, well "just there".


LOL...can't WAIT to get the wife's reaction to a thigh rig though. Think I'll stick with the hip.

Awesome breakdown Dreamer!

Dreamer said:

This post is for "dmatting" and "papabear", and any other folks on OCDO who are confused about our stupid, outdated, and arguably illegal "common law violation" of "GAttTotP".


Actually the NC "GAttTotP common-law violation is NOT the same as "brandishing"--in fact is, from a leglistic POV, the exact opposite...

...
Consider yourselves educated. In fact, you are now WAY more educated than about 90% of the LEOs in NC as to the subtleties of GAttTotP. Please use your new-found knowledge wisely. ;-)

Carry on...

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Isn't that what I said? :lol:

thanks DREAMER, i had seen that before but couldn't find it. i know this issue has been whipped a lot on this forum (guess it will be until it is gone). this got me to thinking, i had someone at a recent gun show swear that there has been convictions of this. i don't know if since the person was a CC I, that he tell this to scare folks into CC. though it sounds like in your breakdown, it should be hard to convict someone. i have heard that GAttTotP is usually used as a tack on, how common is it to get a conviction?
BTW, i did have an experience where a high up LEO try to use this to intimidate some people that wanted to carry.

Thank DMATTING, i am terrible with acronyms

TOKER, the reason i asked was, i was just curios, because i have been hearing the same story from some other people. they had no problem with checks for purchases and knew of nothing that would have been a problem. i wonder if it has something to do with weather are not the sheriff of the county "wants to find something", so to deny it.

papa bear said:

thanks DREAMER, ii had someone at a recent gun show swear that there has been convictions of this. i don't know if since the person was a CC I, that he tell this to scare folks into CC. though it sounds like in your breakdown, it should be hard to convict someone. i have heard that GAttTotP is usually used as a tack on, how common is it to get a conviction?

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People get convicted of GAttTotP in NC all the time. But as far as I can find NEVER as a primary or "stand alone" charge.

The convictions are usually when GAttTotP is,as you say, a "tack on" charge to some other activity that is much more serious--armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, domestic abuse, stalking, sexual assault, or some other such thing.

The convictions ARE there, and they happen quite frequently, but it's always (from my research) as an "add on" charge when someone has done something else MUCH more serious using a gun, and were waving it around or making threats before committing the main, serious violation...

MidnighToker said:

Back to one of my earlier posts...Say I am OCing with a OTP hip holster..use the Serpa for an example. The winter months are now coming up which generally means heaver/longer jackets. I'm in the middle here... Say that the jacket is long enough to cover up the upper half of the gun/holster. The grip would obviously be concealed as well as an "identifiable" trigger etc. If I were to play it safe to OC and tuck my jacket behind the grips, could that be considered I dunno, "flaunting" it? It will most certainly draw more attention to it.

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In the winter, if you don't have a NC CHP, and are wearing a coat, you have two options for OC:

1) ear a waist-length coat, and just make SURE that your coat doesn't cover the butt of your gun. Do a sort of "NC variation" of the VVirginia Tuck"--it looks a little silly, but you need to be sure that your firearm is "readily recognizable as a firearm". The bottom inch or two of a holster being exposed while the rest of the gun is covered is, under most interpretations of NC law, considered "concealed" and can get you in trouble, or

2) wear a holster that hangs a little lower than your warm-weather carry rig. Thigh rigs work, but they DO tend to draw more attention, and any LEO who ALREADY has an attitude about Citizen Carry is going to blow a fuse if you're wearing a thigh rig, because they will think you are REALLY encroaching on their Rambo-esque state-sanctioned "monopoly on force". "Duty Holsters" made specifically for cops often hang a little lower than regular holsters, and you might look into one of those designs.

Also, Serpa sells a "drop loop adapter" for it's holsters that will drop a standard Serpa holster about 2-3". I have one of these on my "winter Serpa" (I have two Serpas for my Para Ordnance--one on a "drop loop" and one on a standard paddle). This alternative mount for a Serpa can be had for iunder $20.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Jacket-Slot-Duty-Belt-Loop,839,82.htm

Dreamer said:

In the winter, if you don't have a NC CHP, and are wearing a coat, you have two options for OC:

1) ear a waist-length coat, and just make SURE that your coat doesn't cover the butt of your gun. Do a sort of "NC variation" of the VVirginia Tuck"--it looks a little silly, but you need to be sure that your firearm is "readily recognizable as a firearm". The bottom inch or two of a holster being exposed while the rest of the gun is covered is, under most interpretations of NC law, considered "concealed" and can get you in trouble, or

2) wear a holster that hangs a little lower than your warm-weather carry rig. Thigh rigs work, but they DO tend to draw more attention, and any LEO who ALREADY has an attitude about Citizen Carry is going to blow a fuse if you're wearing a thigh rig, because they will think you are REALLY encroaching on their Rambo-esque state-sanctioned "monopoly on force". "Duty Holsters" made specifically for cops often hang a little lower than regular holsters, and you might look into one of those designs.

Also, Serpa sells a "drop loop adapter" for it's holsters that will drop a standard Serpa holster about 2-3". I have one of these on my "winter Serpa" (I have two Serpas for my Para Ordnance--one on a "drop loop" and one on a standard paddle). This alternative mount for a Serpa can be had for iunder $20.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Jacket-Slot-Duty-Belt-Loop,839,82.htm

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Thanks man...that's exactly what I was looking for.

MidnighToker, be advised that if you order this directly from Blackhawk (which I HIGHLY suggest, for reasons to be revealed later in this post) you need to request that they send along a set of long attachment screws for your Serpa. The drop loop is actually made for "Duty Holsters", which come with different (longer and slightly thicker) screws than the standard Serpa CQC. They usually toss the extra screws in free of charge.

I work security and my duty coat has zippers on the side so I can unzip the side and snap the side of my jacket around my sidearm so it's easy to access and I stay warm. I think 511 sells some not so obvious "cop" looking jackets with this same feature.

Dreamer: By far the best breakdown of GATTTOTP I've seen! Thank you for that and do you mind If I save that for my personal collection of info? I promise to give ya full credit If I ever use it!

aosailor said:

Dreamer: By far the best breakdown of GATTTOTP I've seen! Thank you for that and do you mind If I save that for my personal collection of info? I promise to give ya full credit If I ever use it!

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Thank you--yes you may use it. It was my pleasure...

i use drop holsters and thigh rigs all the time. i ride my MC alot and have no where else. no one has ever said anything to me.

oh btw.. another thing i have found is that in nautica jeans, the paddle holster supplied with my XDM fits the pockets right tight and very comfortably. so sometimes if i only need to drop the weapon a couple of inches i use that. but im a short guy and most of my coats are to long for that anyway. but for hoodies, and sweat shirts it works great. it does move it forward a little but its nothing major and the pocket design doesnt let it bounce around.