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Thread: Dos and don't of open carry article

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Dos and don't of open carry article

    Enjoy!

    http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/10/the-dos-and-donts-of-open-carry-part-i.html


    By Roger Phillips, Suarez International Specialist and Tier One Instructor

    A serious look at making the open carry operator as squared away as they can possible be.


    I know there are people out there that believe that I am "anti-open carry." This is not really the truth of the matter. What I am is "anti-ignorance" and I admit that I am very hard core in this belief. For those that know and train with me, they know why I am like that. They know that I really care about their ability to be the very best they can be when it comes down to the ability to defend their lives and the lives of their loved ones. To me, this is the paramount reason that we carry and any other reason pales in comparison.


    I do not carry for a political agenda, or because it is my right, or because I want to be a hero, or because I want the mere presence of the gun to stop a crime, or because of the coolness factor, or to educate people, or the stir up awareness. I carry for one reason and one reason only.
    I carry to be the very best that I can be inside of a life threatening encounter involving myself or my loved ones! ......more at link
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #2
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Ironic...

    Someone who really appears to be "anti-open carry" posting a blog entry on the Do's and Don'ts of Open Carry? Oh the irony...

    I find it interesting that he attacks Open Carry in "an appeal to common sense", but yet disregards some common sense information on Open Carry that is readily available.

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Diarrhea from the mouth!

    Sent from my HTC Inspire 4G via Tapatalk
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry He's all for gun rights, but...............

    It's the same old song and dance here folks, nothing to see, move along.

    Funny how some in the CC community seem to cherish their rights, but "F" anyone else who doesn't do it the way they do, because he's the "all knowing Wizard of Self Defense!" The only thing I can agree on is his references to training being important, other than that, it's a self serving clap trap! God forbid his wife ever breaks down on the x-way near a "gutterish" part of town, she should have known better and replaced the timing chain before she left the house!

    Note* his article has gotten the response it deserves, ZERO comments. Life is good, Carry on openly friends.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    What does the pictures in the article have to do with the article other than showing the awesomeness (read: lameness) of the author in action with his gun/mag that he thinks he should be concealing?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    I call BS. this one statement says it. Quote;I think it is time for us all to agree, without having to call for links to prove it, the mere presence of a gun may stop a crime from ever being committed. On the flip side we need to agree that the presence of the gun may also be the catalyst of the crime that is committed. Yes, there are plenty of cases that show that people were targeted for their guns……..in their homes and on their person. This is all well documented and backed by common sense.; end quote

    if you can't give a cite for a statement it is just an opinion. "having a gun causes a crime", come on, there is no common sense in this statement

    can any one produce one case where this happened? if carrying open does not deter someone then LEO's would not carry open.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Yep, based on the comments section, one would think only highly-trained civilians who have CC licenses should be able to defend themselves.

    Otherwise, according to them, OC is just plain dumb. And, all us OCers are just troglodytes who cannot possibly have made well-informed personal decisions.

    Of course, they know all about it. And, knowing all about it (probably from having years of experience at OC), they are able to make very refined judgements properly weighing all factors.

    Maybe one day we'll hear from folks who aren't parrots regurgitating the same old litany they learned at their CC instructors' knees.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    To shed some light on it for those who may not know, Suarez International is one of the US's most respected firearm training organizations, and further, Roger Philips is one of their more active instructors.

    Something I like about this company is that Gabe Suarez is very much an advocate of free speech, saying what he damn well means at every turn, with blatant disregard for any political correctness. It seems he expects the same from his instructors. In regards to open carry, I'm not sure what the company in general feels on the matter, but being as freedom driven as they are I don't much think they oppose it politically. They are headquartered in Arizona, Prescott specifically, pretty much the nerve center of gun rights and instruction in the United States.

    In regards to what Phillips said in that article, most of his points are exaggerated by the opinions of any experienced urban open carrier, but it doesn't alter the fact that most of his theories on the matter are grounded in facts he's learned first hand teaching shooting and conducting force on force drills and such. He isn't wrong, in that OCing is for someone who can consistently stay on mentally, in case of a very rare chance that you might have to draw.

    It very quickly gets lost sight of when you OC, because clearly attacks on private people specifically because they are carrying are astronomically rare due to a lack of suicidal criminals. In that sense, his article seems overblown. In a worst case scenario, he is however still right. And after all, his profession is getting people ready for a worst case scenario with armed self defense, and he is among the very top in the field. His Point Shooting Progressions class is probably one of the best teaching systems in the industry.

    None of this is to suggest that he can't be wrong, or that OCers shouldn't sharply disagree with him (or me) here if they so desire, but he is the sort of person who should be given an ear when he talks, and what he says should be given due consideration, and then a second look, before being partly or fully dismissed.
    Last edited by Michigander; 10-04-2011 at 12:31 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    I call BS. this one statement says it. Quote;I think it is time for us all to agree, without having to call for links to prove it, the mere presence of a gun may stop a crime from ever being committed. On the flip side we need to agree that the presence of the gun may also be the catalyst of the crime that is committed. Yes, there are plenty of cases that show that people were targeted for their guns……..in their homes and on their person. This is all well documented and backed by common sense.; end quote

    if you can't give a cite for a statement it is just an opinion. "having a gun causes a crime", come on, there is no common sense in this statement

    can any one produce one case where this happened? if carrying open does not deter someone then LEO's would not carry open.
    Well actually, here's a "cite"... sorry. Just Google "Wisconsin open carry robbery" and you too can read all about it.

    http://gunstuff-jd.blogspot.com/2010...n-carrier.html
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-04-2011 at 12:24 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Well actually, here's a "cite"... sorry. Just Google "Wisconsin open carry robbery" and you too can read all about it.

    http://gunstuff-jd.blogspot.com/2010...n-carrier.html
    That was staged, afaik.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    That was staged, afaik.
    I had not heard that...can you provide a citation that it was? I really would like to have that.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    To shed some light on it for those who may not know, Suarez International is one of the US's most respected firearm training organizations, and further, Roger Philips is one of their more active instructors.

    Something I like about this company is that Gabe Suarez is very much an advocate of free speech, saying what he damn well means at every turn, with blatant disregard for any political correctness. It seems he expects the same from his instructors. In regards to open carry, I'm not sure what the company in general feels on the matter, but being as freedom driven as they are I don't much think they oppose it politically. They are headquartered in Arizona, Prescott specifically, pretty much the nerve center of gun rights and instruction in the United States.

    In regards to what Phillips said in that article, most of his points are exaggerated by the opinions of any experienced urban open carrier, but it doesn't alter the fact that most of his theories on the matter are grounded in facts he's learned first hand teaching shooting and conducting force on force drills and such. He isn't wrong, in that OCing is for someone who can consistently stay on mentally, in case of a very rare chance that you might have to draw.

    It very quickly gets lost sight of when you OC, because clearly attacks on private people specifically because they are carrying are astronomically rare due to a lack of suicidal criminals. In that sense, his article seems overblown. In a worst case scenario, he is however still right. And after all, his profession is getting people ready for a worst case scenario with armed self defense, and he is among the very top in the field. His Point Shooting Progressions class is probably one of the best teaching systems in the industry.

    None of this is to suggest that he can't be wrong, or that OCers shouldn't sharply disagree with him (or me) here if they so desire, but he is the sort of person who should be given an ear when he talks, and what he says should be given due consideration, and then a second look, before being partly or fully dismissed.
    Funny, you'll notice in the articles pictures EVERYONE is OCing. Need I say more? Why he feels the way he does, only he knows. Maybe it's the hundreds of hours he spends on the range each year? The average CPL holder has no were near that level of training. Hell, on the entire MI forum I only know of two people who come close [Sprinklerguy28 & Dougwg] To basically tell them [avg. pistol owner] that OC will make them a target for crime is bunk at best.
    In a country of 300,000,000 - the best anti-OC people can come up with is the one poor dolt from WI who got jacked. I say that I will ALWAYS be able to draw quicker from an OC holster than from concealment under a layer of clothing. I know, I've timed it! He is about training, then he damn well better start having his students pulling their pistols from a concealment holster, under clothing and engaging moving targets at close range. I'm sure most cannot do it as well as they can from OC holsters. But remember he's all about having himself & his students make it home at the end of the day, yet he advises them against using the fastest way to do so. Not to mention a BG may decide against the planned attack once OC by the potential victim is noted. Should everyone OC, probably not. Should those who are biased against OC be writing articles about how to OC? Probably not.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 10-04-2011 at 01:33 AM. Reason: typo
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  13. #13
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I don't think the average CPL holder is an issue which he is concerned with, nor is anyone else at SI. Due no doubt in part to Gabe's past, which can be googled for those who aren't familiar with him, they have no rules requiring any carry licenses for any of their classes, and it would be news to me if they had any system to get people licensed to carry at any level. They are simply about sharpening skills. I'd also add that the average CPL holder has taken a NRA "class", a horrible joke by any educated standard, including theirs. CPL status has no ******* thing whatsoever to do with shooting proficiency, (something I wish more people would be angry and vocal about) and as such they don't seem real concerned with it.

    Also, I agree, he doesn't really have much business writing articles on it without being more into OCing outside of ranges. In quite a real sense, that particular piece is like a new shooter just having to post on a forum as though they are an expert. Or in another sense it's like Bono running his mouth about diseases in foreign countries like he's a doctor or something.

    That still does not alter that again, in a worst case scenario, where an OCer gets caught by surprise, that OCing could end up being a really big problem if you weren't ready. Again, a point which is easily lost on OCers since it's so unlikely to happen. The other thing which balances this out, which he doesn't even mention, and in fact pretty much suggests against, is how much less likely you are to have a problem than if you were CCing. It is understandable that it would be hard for him to come to terms with this after doing so much advanced shooting stuff for so long and carrying concealed so consistently, but you are right, and I agree fully, that he oversteps his room to talk in acting as though he has authoritative room to talk on OCing without the experience to back it up.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I had not heard that...can you provide a citation that it was? I really would like to have that.
    Sorry, I dont have a cite, but I have seen it suggested from other posters whom I trust. I think it was debunked (as likely staged to help push the vote in favor of CC) after I quit posting here last year,
    Last edited by fozzy71; 10-04-2011 at 12:20 PM.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Oh dear, who could argue with a man with these credentials...Suarez International Specialist and Tier One Instructor....International and a Tier 1 instructor no less....Tier 1!.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I would...

    lol.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    A serious look at making the open carry operator...
    Once I read the "operator" my mind converted the rest to "blah blah bliggety blah."

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Oh dear, who could argue with a man with these credentials...Suarez International Specialist and Tier One Instructor....International and a Tier 1 instructor no less....Tier 1!.
    I think I may use my fancy computer and make you a "Super Duper, knowledgeable, proficient,able, adept, adroit, apt, big league, clever, crack, crackerjack, deft, dexterous, experienced, facile, handy, practiced, professional, qualified, savvy, schooled, sharp, skilled, skillful, slick, trained, virtuoso of the arts in small arm response to bad guys" Certificate... and then you can make one for me. Then we'll see who beats whom in this discussion! Obviously this guy thinks that ONLY someone with a certificate attesting to training should carry a gun. If he can see the folly of such thoughts, though, I think he'll come around.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 10-04-2011 at 06:17 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    Sorry, I dont have a cite, but I have seen it suggested from other posters whom I trust. I think it was debunked (as likely staged to help push the vote in favor of CC) after I quit posting here last year,
    I tend to think he was just an idiot who didn't keep SA in mind while walking the streets. The only reason I posted it is... well, a cite was asked for. But, I do agree that 1 or even if someone could find 100 examples out of all of the people who OC in the US, it really doesn't prove much.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I would...

    lol.
    can't wait for tasers to become legal for us to carry.....

  21. #21
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    Hey now, take it easy.

  22. #22
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    The one absolute truth that he talked about, which can not be refuted, is the fact that everyone needs more training.

    All of you guys giving him crap in this thread....how much training have you had/how long has it been?

    I like you guys, you're good guys. I may need your help someday fighting bad guys.

    I would very much like it if you were.....above average.

    Yeah, even you brainless.... I've never said you were a bad guy. I know you're not. I just wish you didn't do so much dumb stuff.

  23. #23
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Doug, that actually means quite a bit coming from you especially.

    Peace.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    So the guy doesn't care about OC....


    WGASA
    Last edited by Bikenut; 10-04-2011 at 06:54 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    The one absolute truth that he talked about, which can not be refuted, is the fact that everyone needs more training.

    All of you guys giving him crap in this thread....how much training have you had/how long has it been?

    I like you guys, you're good guys. I may need your help someday fighting bad guys.

    I would very much like it if you were.....above average.

    Yeah, even you brainless.... I've never said you were a bad guy. I know you're not. I just wish you didn't do so much dumb stuff.
    I like above average people being able to defend me, too. And, I think that everyone here is above average (just like in Lake Wobegon as described by Garrison Keillor.) But, I don't think anyone is advocating not getting training whenever possible; that is only wise. And, I too believe the more the better. But, on the other side of the coin, do you want to limit a person's ability to defend themselves because they don't have X amount of hours in training? Do titles such as his really mean anything? I don't know.
    I don't think that what you are advocating is that there needs to be mandatory training, but many citizens in this country do. To me, every day that I drive I wish more people had paid attention in "driver's ed", or even took it in the first place. But, the authorities have deemed that driving is so important in our society that a very minimal amount of instruction, or no instruction at all, is needed to drive a car. I think being able to defend oneself with the best means possible is certainly more important than driving a car.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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