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Thread: CCI Brass -230gr TMJ shooting 4" low? Bad batch maybe?

  1. #1
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    CCI Brass -230gr TMJ shooting 4" low? Bad batch maybe?

    Hey, encountered something today I've not experienced before.
    For practice, and even for carry sometimes, I use the CCI Brass -TMJ 230 gr in .45acp. Went out back today to pop off a magazine worth while I was waiting for a package to arrive.
    I fired off the 1st shot (30 feet @ paper target about the size of a playing card is my routine), and didnt even hit it. Was like ???? Maybe I'm off today. Fired off 1 more round, same thing. Went and checked target and my backstop and found the shots had both hit into a figure-8 with each other, but about 4" below point of aim.
    Shrugged it off, went back to the line, and proceeded to fire off 4 more shots after aiming the front sight a little higher. Same thing..
    Tried left-handed, right-handed-2-handed, all same results.. 12 rounds total.
    Granted all 12 rounds landed within about a 3" group of each other, but they were all impacting about 4" low of aim no matter how I compensated.

    Now, normally with this ammo, I can print all 12 shots into that playing-card size, Im wondering if maybe this batch of ammo is a bit off?
    Never had that sort of thing with CCI or Speer.
    Went back and fired off a few Gold Dots, and some more Brass 230 TMJ from another box of rounds, and all went precisely where I wanted them to...odd.

    No functional issues at all- FTF/FTE etc,No jams. Recoil (what there is of it) didnt feel underpowered or in any way abnormal..
    Last edited by j4l; 10-04-2011 at 02:38 PM.

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    Oh, and as an aside- for those who buy into the myth that 230 hardball doesnt expand, or over-penetrates..




  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It sounds like you have a different powder in there than was in previous batches. Check the box for muzzle velocity and compare it (if you can) with struff that you used before without the low POI.

    Contact the company with batch lot number info and make a polite complaint - often they will not only tell you why you were hitting low but replace what's left and take it back to do QC stuff on it.

    Otherwise, adjust POA up by 4 inches and carry on. Just remember to re-zero when you switch to another box/brand/etc.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    At the range a few weeks back a friend was checking the speed of some ammo (his reloads and we threw in a few factory rounds). I think I had Federal but use Blaser Brass alot too.

    I was surprised at the low velocity of the 45acp ball ammo. I think it was something like 834 ft/sec! In the past I have had shooting sessions at 25yds that everything seemed to be dropping 6" below my point of aim. I think that some ammo just is best for closer target practice than others.

    As long as your self defense ammo that you carry hits on target I wouldn't worry much.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    ....

    As long as your self defense ammo that you carry hits on target I wouldn't worry much.
    Unless you are going to do all your practicing with your self defense ammo, this is a big issue and I'd worry about it quite a bit. If most practice is done with "practice" ammo then you are going to develop shooting habits based on using the "oractice" ammo. That means if when using "practice" ammo you have to adjust your POA 4" high you will be more likely to aim 4" high when you find yourself in a for-real self defense situation, for we all understand that "in a crisis you revert to your training" is more than just a nice sound bite.

    While I may want to save the high-priced stuff for use only when TSHTF, I want whatever lower-priced stuff I use for practice to at least give me the same ballistics as my self defense rounds. I'm not that concerned with depth of penetration or percentage of expansion and mass retention when punching holes in paper, but I am concerned that the holes I make will be going as near as possible to where the holes I would be making in a self defense situation. That way I do not have to worry about remembering to shift my POA from what I'm used to using in practice. (See comment above about training and reality.)

    I don't know about anybody else, but I don't practice to get it right. I practice getting it right. You can work out how those two things are different if you need to.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Couple things-
    Yes, .45acp standard pressure loads usually average around 840 fps or so (from 4" -5" barrels) in 230 grain loads, which is as light as Im willing to go.
    I dont have a chrony to measure the actual velocities these are putting out, though.. But like I said -level of recoil, function of the slide ,etc. all feels about normal.

    Past lots of this exact ammo have performed very well, and been very accurate-that's why this lot surprised me. A few rounds left over from a previous box of the same loads shoot right to point of aim for me. As do a few rounds of the Gold Dots. So, Im inclined to think this batch /lot may have come out a bit more weak than others.- Even at it's low hitting- its doing so consistently, and grouping very tight- so even at a possible reduced velocity, it's accurate in that regard.

    Gold Dots actually "feel" a bit hotter- recoil is a bit more of a push than these hardball loads- and impacts on target hit with a noticeably harder " thump".But, my primary carry mag is usually an alternating load of GD and Hardball. (1st round GD, second round TMJ, etc.) And I often practice with that load-out as well. They both tend to hit accurately for me- forming little figure-8's with double-taps.
    My second mag is usually all hardball/tmj.

    I suppose it sounds odd-but here's the reason for my method: Gold Dots, in my own informal tests, consistently penetrate well AND expand as designed.But sometimes, GDs (and any JHP) does it's designed job too well, and expands too early- before it has penetrated deep enough.
    So, as a sort of fail-safe, I make sure the next round going in is TMJ so as to penetrate deeper.
    Now, naturally, when GD fails to expand, gets clogged, etc. it just acts like hardball, so no problem there.. And, as Ive shown above, in the pics, there are times when hardball strikes hard surfaces (bone,gristle, etc.) and deforms and even expands to an extent, so you end up with some of the same benefits of JHP.

    Anyway, I practice enough with both types, that I am confident in carrying both as my defensive loads.

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    --snip--
    Granted all 12 rounds landed within about a 3" group of each other, but they were all impacting about 4" low of aim no matter how I compensated.
    --snip--.
    Would have agreed from what you posted that it was likely substandard powder charge. That is until I reread the post and took notice of the bolded comment - that makes no sense at all to me.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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