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Thread: Wisconsin Bankers Assoc member forum held on WI CCW

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    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Wisconsin Bankers Assoc member forum held on WI CCW

    Wisconsin Bankers Association just held an electronic discussion forum on WI CCW, 250 reps from 170 Wisconsin banks attended one of them being yours truly. This trade association consists of 98% of WI chartered banks. Most of it is standard legal boiler plate but there were a few interesting bits. An opinion about restricting CCW in drive up teller lanes while the customer is still in their personal vehicle on bank property. As well as discussing lack of bank liability and responsibility after posting a no CCW sign and customer injury due to a 3rd party.

    Member handouts in PDF format are attached.
    Authors appear to be
    pneuman@boardmanlawfirm.com
    jmirus@boardmanlawfirm.com
    WI Banker Legal VP not credited
    kcelven@Wisbank.com

    If anyone has access to the Wisconsin Credit Union League's 9-13-11 opinion "To Post or Not to Post?" I'm curious if it's comparable. Community Bankers of Wisconsin posted the Wisconsin Banker opinions almost to the letter.

    Concealed Carry and Bank Liability Summary
    ...

    Banks may not prohibit individuals from keeping firearms in a vehicle being driven or parked in a parking
    lot or to any part of the building, land or grounds used as a parking lot. It currently appears likely that the
    law will permit banks to prohibit individuals from carrying firearms in vehicles being driven through a
    bank's drive-through, subject to the posting requirement.

    Liability was the focus of a majority of the memberships questions. I found this to be actually a bit scary personally. Strip your right of self defense, force you to enter a facility known to be targeted by armed criminals, then deny liability based on reasonable foresee-ability and the posted sign providing adequate warning.

    Concealed Carry and Bank Liability
    ...
    In general, and depending on the facts and circumstances of course, we believe banks that
    prohibit firearms run a low risk of incurring liability for injuries caused by concealed firearms in
    many circumstances, even though they are not afforded the statutory immunity provided by the
    Act. Banks that prohibit firearms are not expecting any firearms to be on the premises.
    Therefore the harm caused by a concealed firearm is less likely to be reasonably foreseeable than
    if firearms were allowed. In addition, the fact that harm may be caused by a concealed firearm
    may be difficult for a bank to reasonably discover because the weapon is often concealed from
    view until moments before the harm takes place. However, if a bank prohibits firearms and an
    individual enters the premises with a firearm to the knowledge of the bank, then there is a higher
    risk of liability for injuries caused by the firearm, because the potential for harm is more likely to
    be reasonably foreseeable and the bank is more likely to have a duty to protect its customers.
    Plaintiffs injured by concealed firearms may argue that banks prohibiting firearms are
    required to take additional steps, such as providing metal detectors or security guards to enforce
    a no firearms policy. However, banks are only required to protect against reasonably foreseeable
    harm, not guarantee customer safety. As a result, it seems unlikely that Wisconsin courts would
    impose additional preventive measures on banks that prohibit firearms beyond posting notice.
    Even if harm is reasonably foreseeable under certain circumstances, a bank that prohibits
    firearms will not be liable unless it fails to take reasonable steps to protect its customers by
    controlling the conduct of third parties or providing an adequate warning.
    WI Banker approved signage.
    Apparently no security is a form of security program.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    McX
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    they are obviously more concerned about your money, and being politically correct, than your safety.

  3. #3
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    They are telling the bankers what they want to hear re: liability; but that is not the way the statute reads.... Gonna' be some surprised bankers when the first law suit hits.
    Dave
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    it is a losing battle with the banks...The Federal Reserve runs the country,all the banks,lawyers,police,military,politicians and all the courts...You will never win in court against a bank

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    You can't even carry in the drive-thru? what the hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    You can't even carry in the drive-thru? what the hell.
    BS. I'd love to see them try and enforce that.
    Last edited by bmwguy11; 10-04-2011 at 08:02 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musky1011 View Post
    it is a losing battle with the banks...The Federal Reserve runs the country,all the banks,lawyers,police,military,politicians and all the courts...You will never win in court against a bank
    lol, banks are completely separate entities from the government. Just because the money is insured by the government, doesn't mean the bank is owned by the government.

    This is not a case where someone was physically harmed, but their identity was and they are

    http://www.darkreading.com/database-...e-forward.html

    http://www.twincitiesbusinesslitigat...interesting-1/

    http://www.chicagobusinesslitigation..._negligen.html

    You honestly think you cannot take on the bank? lmao
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Banks that prohibit firearms are not expecting any firearms to be on the premises.
    Therefore the harm caused by a concealed firearm is less likely to be reasonably foreseeable than if firearms were allowed.
    What idiots!
    Can't they 'reasonably forsee' that criminals will go along like they always have, attacking people & places that look to be easy prey?

    And I agree that their lawyerly person is giving very bad advice... I thought being able to read & reason were prerequisites to being a lawyer? Why can't s/he figure out that the part of the law that says "if you don't post, you're immune from liability" means exactly what it says?
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    What idiots!
    Can't they 'reasonably forsee' that criminals will go along like they always have, attacking people & places that look to be easy prey?

    And I agree that their lawyerly person is giving very bad advice... I thought being able to read & reason were prerequisites to being a lawyer? Why can't s/he figure out that the part of the law that says "if you don't post, you're immune from liability" means exactly what it says?
    No one has ever been robbed outside a bank either...

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/E...115603569.html

    http://www.khou.com/news/local/Shots...128918873.html

    http://www.vagazette.com/articles/20...2231622189.txt

    http://www.walb.com/story/15216337/e...edirected=true
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    If they think they can prevent me from carrying in my vehicle in a drive thru lane (or ATM), they are wrong.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    those bankers actually think those signs will prevent all the future bank robberies ? i wanna say a variety of swear words here but I can't !
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    oxyMORON

    "We participate in the no firearms allowed security program."

    Well that about sums it up. I guess we will all be secure since they have a security program in effect.

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    You can't even carry in the drive-thru? what the hell.
    i just might put a holster on my dash now just for this whole bank drivethru BS
    SCOTT

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musky1011 View Post
    it is a losing battle with the banks...The Federal Reserve runs the country,all the banks,lawyers,police,military,politicians and all the courts...You will never win in court against a bank
    I'm sorry, I didn't see that section in the US Constitution where it says banks are above the law.... (The little dots mean I'm being sarcastic, son.)

    I sincerely hope that nobody is injured or killed because of this policy; but if they are, I sincerely hope that the officers of the bank responsible for the decision have to pay until it hurts, and then pay some more.
    Last edited by davegran; 10-05-2011 at 07:58 AM.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  15. #15
    McX
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    the banks are private entities, that are supported, and bailed out by the federal government. they routinely rip off citizens, with impunity (although i saw in the paper today many of them are up on fed. charges of ripping off veterans), and they routinely hide behind the same slogan the government uses on us: We are here to help you. conspiracy?! nah.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    the banks are private entities, that are supported, and bailed out by the federal government. they routinely rip off citizens, with impunity (although i saw in the paper today many of them are up on fed. charges of ripping off veterans), and they routinely hide behind the same slogan the government uses on us: We are here to help you. conspiracy?! nah.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Might as well put a sign in the front window "We are prime for any robber who wants free money". Morons
    Wisconsin Carry Member
    My Castle Doctrine Law

    Don't wish ill upon your enemy......plan it.

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    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
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    Yet another reason to not use banks.

    For a lot of people, the drive thru getting cash or an ATM visit is one of their most vulnerable times when they are most likely to get hijacked or robbed.

    Never mind the fact the law specifically talks about rights of citizens to possess firearms in parking lots.

    I hope it works out for them. [..snicker..snicker..]
    "I can only be held responsible for my own stupidity." - Captain Nemo

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    Bankers Rationale

    Talking to a banker trained in security the other day about this issue, he explained to me one of the security issues the law does not anticipate or address. Most banks do not employ armed security guards anymore. Their security is to give the thief money with a die pack included and get him/her out of the bank as quickly as possible. The reason for this is that banks are built with a lot of marble, concrete and steel, all of which deflect bullets in potentially unsafe directions. They do not want shoot outs inside the bank because the bullets will end up being richochet'd all over the place and do not feel that is as safe for the customers as handing out the die pack and getting the scum bag out the door. Examining a GREAT majority of bank robberies shows that this method is effective in minimizing gunfire inside the bank and allowing law enforcement the best opportunity to find the perp. A GREAT majority of bank robberies involved no gunfire, and a great many of them involve no firearm at all. There are some cases where firearms have been discharged during a robbery, most into the ceiling or floor to scare the patrons and employees. Even crooks are smart enough to know two things: 1. A dead teller can't give you any money. 2. Robbery gets you much less time behind bars than does murder. The banks feel that it is more safe for the customers and the employees to minimize or eliminate the possibility of gunfire during a robbery and less safe to shoot it out with the bad guy. It's only money. Just wanted to explain the mindset. Don't wish to take a side.

    Fast Ed

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Ed View Post
    Talking to a banker trained in security the other day about this issue, he explained to me one of the security issues the law does not anticipate or address. Most banks do not employ armed security guards anymore. Their security is to give the thief money with a die pack included and get him/her out of the bank as quickly as possible. The reason for this is that banks are built with a lot of marble, concrete and steel, all of which deflect bullets in potentially unsafe directions. They do not want shoot outs inside the bank because the bullets will end up being richochet'd all over the place and do not feel that is as safe for the customers as handing out the die pack and getting the scum bag out the door. Examining a GREAT majority of bank robberies shows that this method is effective in minimizing gunfire inside the bank and allowing law enforcement the best opportunity to find the perp. A GREAT majority of bank robberies involved no gunfire, and a great many of them involve no firearm at all. There are some cases where firearms have been discharged during a robbery, most into the ceiling or floor to scare the patrons and employees. Even crooks are smart enough to know two things: 1. A dead teller can't give you any money. 2. Robbery gets you much less time behind bars than does murder. The banks feel that it is more safe for the customers and the employees to minimize or eliminate the possibility of gunfire during a robbery and less safe to shoot it out with the bad guy. It's only money. Just wanted to explain the mindset. Don't wish to take a side.

    Fast Ed
    Unless of course you get robbed outside the bank...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  21. #21
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Ed View Post
    The reason for this is that banks are built with a lot of marble, concrete and steel, all of which deflect bullets in potentially unsafe directions.
    Say what?

    Bank robberies only happen in the Loop circa 1923?

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  22. #22
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Ed View Post
    Talking to a banker trained in security the other day about this issue, he explained to me one of the security issues the law does not anticipate or address. Most banks do not employ armed security guards anymore. Their security is to give the thief money with a die pack included and get him/her out of the bank as quickly as possible. The reason for this is that banks are built with a lot of marble, concrete and steel, all of which deflect bullets in potentially unsafe directions. They do not want shoot outs inside the bank because the bullets will end up being richochet'd all over the place and do not feel that is as safe for the customers as handing out the die pack and getting the scum bag out the door. Examining a GREAT majority of bank robberies shows that this method is effective in minimizing gunfire inside the bank and allowing law enforcement the best opportunity to find the perp. A GREAT majority of bank robberies involved no gunfire, and a great many of them involve no firearm at all. There are some cases where firearms have been discharged during a robbery, most into the ceiling or floor to scare the patrons and employees. Even crooks are smart enough to know two things: 1. A dead teller can't give you any money. 2. Robbery gets you much less time behind bars than does murder. The banks feel that it is more safe for the customers and the employees to minimize or eliminate the possibility of gunfire during a robbery and less safe to shoot it out with the bad guy. It's only money. Just wanted to explain the mindset. Don't wish to take a side.

    Fast Ed
    if it's only money, then why is a robber in there sticking a gun in someone's face? bullets deflected in random directions?-not if you hit your target, i never get a dye pack from my bank when i cash my check- i feel discriminated against!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Big Dipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    if it's only money, then why is a robber in there sticking a gun in someone's face? bullets deflected in random directions?-not if you hit your target, i never get a dye pack from my bank when i cash my check- i feel discriminated against!
    Have you tried withdrawing funds without a withdrawal request or signed check yet?

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