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Thread: NRA Calls Out DOJ

  1. #1
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    NRA Calls Out DOJ

    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  2. #2
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    Pretty clear to me

  3. #3
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    EXCELLENT...... YEEEE HAAAWWW.......

    It is obvious "they" will not listen to us, so MAYBE they will listen to the NRA...

    I also like all the "cc's" at the bottom of the letter....

    Thanks for posting and making my day....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-05-2011 at 02:53 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

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  4. #4
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    To all the DOJ fan boys.
    Nice post dude!

    Love the bit about the DOJ demanding hands on training. So my Utah permit class would NOT meet the DOJs illegal tampering with state law. Interesting. Good thing I took the NRA course too. Just to be sure.


    So Paul. Can your upcoming lawsuit(s) against the DOJ be class action? Or did we cover this already? Or should I just wait for WCInc to file?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    I know JB Van Hollen's nephew.... heh

  6. #6
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip...

    Mr. H. Hamlet wrote....

    So Paul. Can your upcoming lawsuit(s) against the DOJ be class action? Or did we cover this already? Or should I just wait for WCInc to file?

    From what I have read, Paul's "lawsuit" will be regarding the DOJ not accepting the Maryland Online Course as meeting the requierments already listed. If you are going to use either your Utah Permit or the NRA Basic Pistol Certificate then you would be exempt from any class action filed (unless the DOJ rejects them as well).

    As IANAL, and aslo IANPF, I as always, could be wrong.... But hey.. it sounded good in my brain....

    Maybe I missed my calling... either a lawyer or a bullshi+er.... or I suppose they could be one in the same....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-05-2011 at 03:15 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
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  7. #7
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Love the bit about the DOJ demanding hands on training. ...
    Looks like the NRA is going to be eating some crow when the admin code is released. The DOJ IS NOT going to require "hands on" firearms training. Act 35 explicitly forbids this. What the DOJ is planning to require is "face-to-face" training. Apples with Astronauts....
    There was never a doubt that any NRA firearms training would qualify.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-05-2011 at 03:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Snip...

    But hey.. it sounded good in my brain....



    Outdoorsman1
    10-4 good buddy.

    I guess I'll start my own lawsuit. Or wait for WCInc?

    175.60(2)(b)

    The department [of justice] may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect or content of a license.
    Seems like it's written in English to me.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  9. #9
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip...

    The Honerable Mr. H. Hamlet wrote....

    I guess I'll start my own lawsuit. Or wait for WCInc?
    Hey if you need representation just let me know... I am thinking about embarking on a new profession (had trouble spelling career)... I can see it now.... Me on TV with one of the honerable lawyer commercials... Call 1-800-BULLSHI+ to speak directly to my voice mail... Outdoorsman1 for all your legal needs... I may not be licensed , but I don't care if you don't care.....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-05-2011 at 03:38 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    10-4 good buddy.

    I guess I'll start my own lawsuit. Or wait for WCInc?

    175.60(2)(b)

    The department [of justice] may not impose conditions, limitations, or requirements that are not expressly provided for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect or content of a license.
    Seems like it's written in English to me.
    175.60(2)(b) is not violated by requiring face-to-face training or specific information from being present on a "proof of training" certificate.

  11. #11
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Snip...

    I don't care if you don't care.....

    Outdoorsman1
    As your first and most loyal client I humbly suggest you copyrite that ASAP!
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 10-05-2011 at 03:55 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    175.60(2)(b) is not violated by requiring face-to-face training or specific information from being present on a "proof of training" certificate.
    It's not necessarily violated, but it does give DOJ the burden of showing that every requirement it imposes is authorized by a duty the statute assigns to DOJ. And I haven't found anything in DOJ's authority under Act 35 that would justify a face-to-face training requirement.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip...

    I don't care if you don't care.....
    Copied the right way.....

    I don't care if you don't care.....
    There.. consider it copy righted.... Thanks for the suggestion...'

    As you will be my first client I will work Pro-Bono (Just DO NOT ask me to work Chaz Bono)( where is the hurling smiley when you need him).....as my fee compensation will be the vast word of mouth to future customers that you will be able to amply provide...

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-05-2011 at 03:57 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
    Member: Wisconsin Carry Inc.
    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
    Wisconsin C.C.W. License Holder
    Utah State Permit Holder.
    Arizona State Permit Holder.

  14. #14
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    One thing I do have is a big mouth.

    And since it is time for my mid afternoon nap I think a little music is in order.

    For your listening pleasure...

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  15. #15
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Well done to the NRA! Late and expensive, but kudos.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    It's not necessarily violated, but it does give DOJ the burden of showing that every requirement it imposes is authorized by a duty the statute assigns to DOJ. And I haven't found anything in DOJ's authority under Act 35 that would justify a face-to-face training requirement.
    The burden is on the NRA, WCI, etc legal team to prove that it is not within the DOJ's scope of authority to create Admin Code and practices should they file suit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The burden is on the NRA, WCI, etc legal team to prove that it is not within the DOJ's scope of authority to create Admin Code and practices should they file suit.
    There are other options. The Governor can bounce the rule back to DOJ before it goes to the Legislature's Joint Committee for the Review of Administrative Rules. Once the Governor lets it through, lawmakers get to review it, ask questions, and stop it if they don't like it. I agree that in litigation the burden would be on the plaintiffs....let's hope it gets fixed long before that.

  18. #18
    Regular Member markush's Avatar
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    Secondly, the Act does not establish an expiration date for the training. Thus, a
    person with otherwise valid documentation of training may not be able to submit that
    documentation with an application because it does not meet DOJ's form or content
    requirements, and the person may no longer be able to locate the trainer (who could have
    moved or retired for example) to have him or her update the documentation.


    This is the part that I need to stick!! I went through training in 2008 with an instructor that was both NRA and WI certified...If the DOJ requires additional information on my certificate I would be SOL...I can not locate the instructor!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by markush View Post
    Secondly, the Act does not establish an expiration date for the training. Thus, a
    person with otherwise valid documentation of training may not be able to submit that
    documentation with an application because it does not meet DOJ's form or content
    requirements, and the person may no longer be able to locate the trainer (who could have
    moved or retired for example) to have him or her update the documentation.


    This is the part that I need to stick!! I went through training in 2008 with an instructor that was both NRA and WI certified...If the DOJ requires additional information on my certificate I would be SOL...I can not locate the instructor!!
    The obvious approach would be to grandfather in all prior training, and apply the new criteria only to training that takes place after the rule becomes law.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Great Post! No Bashing The NRA Yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    Thanks Rob. I just read the entire document. I wonder why there hasn't been the usual bashing of the NRA??

    Imagine if the NRA had 80 MILLION members (the guestimate at the number of legal gun owners in the U.S.) instead of 4.5 million. That would be a force to be reckoned with.

    I hope this compels some of you to join the NRA. We may not like everything they do but we do need their support.


    NRA member since 1978. NRA Endowment member since 1988.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Once again a reason to be a NRA member. Hope other national organizations with Wisconsin members will also contact the DOJ.
    Last edited by Flipper; 10-05-2011 at 05:42 PM.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  22. #22
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    "One 'Aww shoot!' wipes out a thousand 'Atta boys'." For EVER.

  23. #23
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    I wonder why there hasn't been the usual bashing of the NRA??
    I WAS an NRA member until the late mid/late 90s. Until their propaganda machine became so fanatical I was embarrassed for the entire organization. Around then I also became a true believer in the power of grass roots movements. And I no longer shared the same goals as the NRA...

    However, having seen Darren La Sorte in action and personally hear him say at the hearings that the NRA was wrong softened my opinion. This letter I think is the tipping point for me. I have been reconsidering my membership for a while.

    The enemy of my enemy is my second cousin twice removed on my sister's inbred ex-husband's side.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    I WAS an NRA member until the late mid/late 90s. Until their propaganda machine became so fanatical I was embarrassed for the entire organization. Around then I also became a true believer in the power of grass roots movements. And I no longer shared the same goals as the NRA...

    However, having seen Darren La Sorte in action and personally hear him say at the hearings that the NRA was wrong softened my opinion. This letter I think is the tipping point for me. I have been reconsidering my membership for a while.

    The enemy of my enemy is my second cousin twice removed on my sister's inbred ex-husband's side.

    LOL. You got me with that last line!

    I agree with you 100%. The NRA allowed bad things to happen and even supported and endorsed disarming American Vets. The NRA I believe learned a hard lesson from that ignorance. I believe Wisconsin Carry is the premier gun rights organization for Wisconsin and has the track record to prove it. I also believe we (gun owners) need as much support as we can get and afford such as joining Gun Owners Of America, J.P.F.O., Second Amendment Foundation and several others.

    In 1998 a shipmate of mine said to me: "Five years from now Americans will not be able to legally own firearms." My response was: "You have little faith in Americans. We will never surrender our gun rights."

    We can only continue this fight as a cohesive group as large as we can be. The bigger the Gorilla, the better.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  25. #25
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.

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