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Thread: Ohio barber shot in butt when customer drops pistol

  1. #1
    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    Ohio barber shot in butt when customer drops pistol

    I'm not sure which is worst, the holster retention or the AD ?

    Barber Kurt Voelkel in the Cleveland suburb of Parma says the man was adjusting his clothing and sitting down on Sept. 29 when a 9 mm handgun fell from his holster, struck the ground and went off.

    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...medium=twitter

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to know what type of holster he had. Not quite sure how the gun would just fall out if it was any kind of decent holster. Good on the barber for not pressing charges. Good on the customer for covering the medical expenses.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 10-06-2011 at 08:04 PM.
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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    1. Bad holster or improperly secured handgun in holster.

    2. Either a faulty weapon or an improperly carried (hammer down on one in the chamber on a pistol not a decocker) firearm.

    3. IMNSHO, this is still a ND and not an AD. Had the pistol been properly secured in the holster and/or carried in the proper condition, this would not have happened.

    I carry one of two, both with a round in the chamber, one with the hammer down (a Ruger P89 DeCocker) and the other "cocked and locked" (a Springfield Armory Champion model). I do not believe either would just "go off" when dropped unless I had done something wrong or the pistol was defective. I am not going to test this theory by dropping either of my babies.

    I do applaud the gun owner for stepping up and taking responsibility for paying the barber's medical bills. I also applaud the barber for not pressing charges.

  4. #4
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Holster and weapon problem IMHO: No retention, and what kind of gun will fire on impact other than an old style SA revolver with one under the hammer?

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    I think this guy needs to get some training of some sort. It definitely shows he didnt make sure he had his gun secure. I think he gets the dum dum award of the week.

  6. #6
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Holster and weapon problem IMHO: No retention, and what kind of gun will fire on impact other than an old style SA revolver with one under the hammer?
    I would think that any pistol with a hammer, not a striker, and without a disconnect between the hammer and the firing pin, as on pistols with a decocker, would be prone to fire when dropped, provided that it hit on the hammer. That is, of course, saying that the hammer is down with one in the chamber.

    As I said, I ain't dropping either one of my babies to find out!

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    I suspect it's a very old gun: it's not drop-safe, and he's carrying FMJs (check the x-ray: it's not even deformed).

    The barber says the man has been a customer for a "very, very long time"; if I had to guess, I'd say he's probably an elder gentleman with a WWII-era gun.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    I feel that open carry could have prevented this. I won't say all, but many people who open carry use a holster with some form of retention. Ontop of this, concealed carry forces you to place your firearm in all kinds of awkward positions to keep it hidden. When I first got into concealed carry I had a cheapo uncle mikes IWB holster (worked fine until I went to sit down like this guy). I went to sit down at an icecream store and damn near lost my 1911. My fault for choosing a crappy holster at the time, the government's fault for forcing my to hide my gun wich put me in the position in the first place.

    A firearm in a decent holster at 3 o' clock (or 9 for you lefties) on your hip isn't going to fall out when you sit down.
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    It would be nice to know the make and model of the firearm in question.

    I'd consider this a failure of journalism. If this were a lead laced toy, or a car with a stuck accelerator that got someone injured, the make and model in question would be one of the first facts given.
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    Obviously, since it was a handgun it was a Glock automatic. If it had been a long gun then it would have been an AK-47. Since it was a handgun it was a Glock, black, and probably had a Hi Capacity Mag, that would let the owner shoot more bullets than he needed. Haven't you ever read a news story before?
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  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Painful, embarrassing, & the customer will probably have his gun destroyed by the gov't, but the wound seems non-serious.
    Glad the outcome wasn't worse!
    And I hope there are no legal problems for him.
    He needs a better gun anyway, one that won't "go off accidentally", &/or a better holster...
    though I admit to having this same problem (gun falls out of holster) this afternoon.

    I had an IWB (no rentention, since it's intended as a cc holster) in SOB & was repeatedly bending over (picking up brass @ an outdoor range), & my G27 fell out, over my hip (which would normally be uphill).
    Luckily, Glocks won't discharge from a drop.
    One more reason I love them - several layers of safety features.
    Rearranged slightly, to put more pressure on the holster/gun, & had no more problems.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    1. Bad holster or improperly secured handgun in holster.
    Definitely.

    2. Either a faulty weapon or an improperly carried (hammer down on one in the chamber on a pistol not a decocker) firearm.
    Probably. Many firearms today have firing pin interlocks or hammer bars which prevent the firing pin from being struck or from moving forward if it is struck, unless the trigger has been pulled along a majority of its length of travel. My CZ 85B has the interlock. My Ruger Redhawk had the hammer bar. Although I didn't worry about AD if it was dropped, I most certainly worried about it being dropped, thus I always carry them in retention holsters.

    3. IMNSHO, this is still a ND and not an AD. Had the pistol been properly secured in the holster and/or carried in the proper condition, this would not have happened.
    Not sure of the difference between ND and AD... Reads like an AD to me.

    I do applaud the gun owner for stepping up and taking responsibility for paying the barber's medical bills. I also applaud the barber for not pressing charges.
    Absolutely! Outstanding on both their parts.
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    I was relieved to read that no one was seriously injured or killed by the guy's carelessness.

    Hopefully, it will be a well-learned lesson for him.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    I carry one of two, both with a round in the chamber, one with the hammer down (a Ruger P89 DeCocker) and the other "cocked and locked" (a Springfield Armory Champion model). I do not believe either would just "go off" when dropped unless I had done something wrong or the pistol was defective. I am not going to test this theory by dropping either of my babies.
    The Ruger P-series has a mechanical interlock of sorts that cams the firing pin out of the way of the hammer when the pistol is equipped with a decocker and the decocker is actuated. The M1911 has no such mechanism, and the firing pin is really close to where the primer cup sits. With the hammer down on a 1911, you can dent the primer cup of the bullet.

    I'm sure whatever gun the guy was carrying probably wasn't in a holster and probably wasn't equipped with a safety, or used by any NATO force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Not sure of the difference between ND and AD... Reads like an AD to me.
    While he accidentally dropped the gun causing the discharge, he negligently carried an unsafe gun in an unsafe manner.

    That makes it ND.

    Yes, there is such a thing as an AD, and I've had one. But, it was safe, because the rifle was on the benchrest, with me behind it and sighting the target on a hot firing line, when a guy with an AR-10 (with a 16" barrel and the Mother Of All Muzzle Brakes) touched off a round two benches down. The concussion caused my sear to trip, and my rifle fired. Because all the other safety rules were followed, it wasn't an ND.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    That makes it ND.
    You still haven't defined the term behind the acronym "ND." What? Nasal discharge?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  17. #17
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    ND - Negligent Discharge - Caused by unsafe actions on the part of the firearm owner - preventable by following safety precautions/regulations

    AD - Accidental Discharge - Generally caused by unforeseeable circumstances or outside influences - not preventable, but can be rendered harmless by following all safety precautions/regulations.

    That's my definitions of the two terms. Anyone got better?

    I'd still love to know what pistol/holster combination the guy had that allowed this to happen.

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