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Thread: Response from DoJ

  1. #1
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    Response from DoJ

    I wrote to AG Van Hollen and received this response. Same as anybody else? Take it for what it is worth
    Mr. xxxx,

    Thank you contacting our office about the Department of Justice’s efforts to implement the concealed carry legislation.

    As you may be aware, responsibility for accepting applications, issuing permits, and other matters relating to the new concealed carry legislation, falls primarily on the Department of Justice. From the start we have been working extraordinarily hard to make sure that all qualified individuals who want to obtain a permit can do so as soon as possible, once the law formally takes effect on November 1, 2011. One of our responsibilities has been to create administrative rules to provide guidance to permit-holders and others on the process for becoming licensed.

    Attorney General Van Hollen has long been a strong supporter of Second Amendment rights, as evidenced by his long-standing support for concealed carry legislation, prior endorsements and recognition by the National Rifle Association, and his participation in key U.S. Supreme Court cases that have defined individual rights to bear arms.

    The concealed carry law requires that, before issuing a permit, the Department of Justice must determine if someone has met the statutory requirements for eligibility. One of those requirements is proof of training which, by statute, means either a hunter safety program or something that the statute refers to as a “firearms safety or training course.”

    It was clear to us that the legislature obviously meant something when it chose to require a “firearms safety or training course,” as opposed to a testing requirement or a system where a qualified instructor could merely vouch for someone who wants a license.

    It was also clear to us that, based on the language of the legislation itself--which the law requires us to follow--the legislature effectively placed the burden on the Department of Justice to define what is meant by a “firearms safety or training course.” Without a workable definition, we would have been bound to accept anything that a qualified instructor chose to call a “firearms safety or training course,” whether it was a week-long program costing $1000 or a 15 second video warning people not to leave loaded guns within the reach of children.

    The Department of Justice did a great deal of research and talked to many different training organizations and other interests before it settled upon an appropriate definition. Based on that research, it became apparent that the gun community itself has already determined that a minimum of four hours was necessary to provide reasonable gun safety training. In fact, many national organizations have basic courses that are longer than four hours. Had we defined a training course to mean something less, we would not have been faithful to the language that the legislature used.

    We are aware of the criticism that, by defining what is meant by a training “course,” we’ve created new burdens on people who want to carry a concealed weapon. That simply isn’t true. Defining terms used by the legislature is a regular and necessary part of rule-making and that is what we did here.

    And, by defining the term up-front, as part of a rule-making process that includes the Governor’s review, we have been open and transparent about what the statute requires. If we had abdicated our duty to define what is meant by a ““firearms safety or training course,” the result would be that permit applicants and training organizations would have to guess as to what was meant. It would also mean that, instead of one standard definition, you would have every qualified trainer, every applicant, and even low level application-processors, trying to guess at what was meant.

    Finally, it is also important to understand that if we were to shy away from the responsibility to make rules, someone else will define what is meant by a training course, whether it be a new Attorney General who opposes gun rights, a Dane County court, or a new Governor who is asked to review proposed rules.

    By putting together reasonable rules at the front end, we are complying with the law and making sure that qualified people who want to carry a concealed weapon will be able to do so now, and in the future.

    As for the timing of the process, we have moved as quickly as possible. Even when rules are expedited, as these rules are, the statutory rulemaking process takes time. The first step in emergency rulemaking is a comprehensive "scope statement" that preliminarily outlines the substance of the proposed rules. Before this could occur, we had to thoroughly analyze the law, consider how it could be effectively administered and decide what components were the appropriate subject for administrative rules.

    While this work involved many individuals and considerable research, we were able to submit the scope statement on the rules to the Governor's office on Aug. 16, less than a month after the law was published. On Aug. 31, we received the Governor's approval and immediately forwarded the scope statement to the Legislative Reference Bureau for publication in the Administrative Register. That publication occurred on Sept. 15. According to Wisconsin law, we then had to wait at least 10 days after publication in the Administrative Register before giving final approval of the scope statement, and only then can rules be formally developed and proposed. I gave final approval to the scope statement on the first possible day, Sept. 26th. The next step is to formally submit them to the Governor, which we are prepared to do as soon as the Governor is ready to receive them. The Governor may then reject the proposed rules, in whole or in part, or approve them.

    Attorney General Van Hollen and this office have one agenda: to follow and implement the concealed carry law as clearly, faithfully and fairly as possible. Those who believe we are trying to stand in the way of concealed carry are misinformed.

    Thank you for your interest in this important issue.

    Steven P. Means

    Executive Assistant Attorney General

    Wisconsin Department of Justice

    17 W. Main Street

    P.O. Box 7857

    Madison, WI 53707 7857

    DID (608) 266-3860

    FAX (608) 267-2779

    meanssp@doj.state.wi.us

  2. #2
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    This is going to end up in court.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  3. #3
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    This letter is a hoot and half.

    "The Department of Justice did a great deal of research and talked to many different training organizations and other interests before it settled upon an appropriate definition. Based on that research, it became apparent that the gun community itself has already determined that a minimum of four hours was necessary to provide reasonable gun safety training."

    One wonders why, if they "talked to many training organizations," the most prominent "training organization", i.e., the NRA apparently disagrees with them.

    So we are to believe that the definition of "training" revolves around how long it lasted, not the content. Imagine if you told that special lady in your life that she had "great sex" because "it lasted over 4 minutes" because "great sex" was defined as "any sex lasting 4 minutes or longer."
    A. Gold

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post

    So we are to believe that the definition of "training" revolves around how long it lasted, not the content. Imagine if you told that special lady in your life that she had "great sex" because "it lasted over 4 minutes" because "great sex" was defined as "any sex lasting 4 minutes or longer."
    DUDE! BRO CODE! BRO CODE! BRO CODE!

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    On'tday entionmay ethay overway 4 (2 in my case) inutemay ingthay!


    also...

    As for the timing of the process, we have moved as quickly as possible.
    Right. Months and months to come up with that 4 hour tripe. What a racket. My mother was right. I should never have dropped out of the fifth grade.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 10-07-2011 at 12:30 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member FretlessMayhem's Avatar
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    Pretty funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Imagine if you told that special lady in your life that she had "great sex" because "it lasted over 4 minutes" because "great sex" was defined as "any sex lasting 4 minutes or longer."
    Ha!

    Hi Wisconsin forum members! I'm from Virginia, but closely followed the various concealed carry bills you guys had tried to pass since 2006 or so. It's ironic how the anti's could have had a much more restrictive bill, but Mr. Doyle decided to veto it, twice. Now you guys have one of the better CCW laws in the country.

    All of this training requirement determination would be moot if you guys could have gotten Constitutional Carry. I was rooting for you guys, but what passed isn't bad.

    I'm hopeful VA and WI can work out reciprocity, and even more hopeful that Constitutional Carry will pass the next legislative year! At least by then you'll have proof that blood didn't line the streets, and that fender benders didn't turn into shootouts in a Wild West scenario.

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Thanks Brother.
    The guys up here are fighters. That is for sure.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun
    Imagine if you told that special lady in your life that she had "great sex" because "it lasted over 4 minutes" because "great sex" was defined as "any sex lasting 4 minutes or longer."
    I'm thinking you'd get one of Those Looks, & little close personal contact until you realized your mistake.
    (4 minutes isn't even a quickie!)

    In this case, I'm thinking that JB & the legislators (new name for a band?) will get an earful & then some from the citizens they're supposed to represent.
    And if they persist in their error, they'll be replaced.
    The letter from Annette to JB is masterful.
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    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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  8. #8
    McX
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    big article in the local rag this am; nra calls out vanhollen. i'm getting pretty tired of nra this, nra that. we all know as the new laws were considered, and proposed by the legislature, that members of Wisconsin Carry worked tirelessly, and endlessly to help craft an acceptable law, and their input had a large effect on the proposed new laws. now all the sudden the nra is the acclaimed expert(s)? sorry the only experts i see are the members of Wisconsin Carry, who all in this matter have now thrown under the bus, and those in authority dont seem to be listening, nor giving them credit.

    today's avitar: my wife said; clean up the garage, or else!
    Last edited by McX; 10-07-2011 at 08:01 AM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    ....we all know as the new laws were considered, and proposed by the legislature, that members of Wisconsin Carry worked tirelessly, and endlessly to help craft an acceptable law, and their input had a large effect on the proposed new laws. now all the sudden the nra is the acclaimed expert(s)? sorry the only experts i see are the members of Wisconsin Carry, who all in this matter have now thrown under the bus, and those in authority dont seem to be listening, nor giving them credit.
    Like them or hate them, the NRA has always had a presence in Madison and had the ear of the representatives throughout the process of crafting ACT 35....

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    Yeah. Unfortunately WCI doesn't put out an annual report card that all politicians live in mortal fear of. Although one must ermember that this forum and the WCI org. is oriented toward open and constitutional carry. Concealed carry is and never was one of the objectives of either group. They have both tolerated the CC Law to this point because it also partly fulfills some of their goals, loaded, uncased carry in vehicles and carry in the 1000 foot school zone. One of the biggest disapointments to WCI is that just as constitutional carry looked like it was a shoo in the NRA stepped in and convinced the legislature to ammend the bill. It used the ploy that it would certain legislature approval. The resulting lopsided bipartisan vote on Act 35 indicated that pure constitutional carry would have had a b etter than even chance of passing. Do I have proof. Probably nothing that will stand up in a court of law but I don't post anything I don't have strong evidence to support and if you review my previous posts on the issue you will find that I prdicted that outcome a year ago. So goes the power of the NRA.

    Regardless the role of the NRA let us not forget that if it wasn't especially for the efforts of WCI members
    Nik, Brad, Hubert, Paul, Hannah Rock, Lawyer John Monroe, Jesus, MKE gal, J.B. Vanhollen and others that had the guts to not just sit there but do something we would never be where we are today and the NRA would never have rode back into town.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 10-07-2011 at 09:27 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thumbs up A Report Card By WCI Is An Excellent Idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Yeah. Unfortunately WCI doesn't put out an annual report card that all politicians live in mortal fear of.
    Why not? A "Report Card" from us would be a very powerful force. I like it!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

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    Here is the link to Senator Galloway's Statement on Attorney General’s Remarks on Proposed Concealed Carry Rules

    http://www.thewheelerreport.com/rele...07galloway.pdf


    "On behalf of my colleagues and all the constituents who elect us to write and make the
    laws, I demand that Attorney General Van Hollen reconsider his position and leave the
    lawmaking up to the Legislature.”
    Here is another Alert and update from APG for more information
    http://eepurl.com/ghPez
    Last edited by phred; 10-07-2011 at 09:46 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Regardless the role of the NRA let us not forget that if it wasn't especially for the efforts of WCI members
    Nik, Brad, Hubert, Paul, Hannah Rock, Lawyer John Monroe, Jesus, MKE gal, J.B. Vanhollen and others that had the guts to not just sit there but do something we would never be where we are today and the NRA would never have rode back into town.
    I do not deserve credit. My harassment by the MPD was not planned. It did, however, motivate me to become more active.

  14. #14
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    big article in the local rag this am; nra calls out vanhollen. i'm getting pretty tired of nra this, nra that. we all know as the new laws were considered, and proposed by the legislature, that members of Wisconsin Carry worked tirelessly, and endlessly to help craft an acceptable law, and their input had a large effect on the proposed new laws. now all the sudden the nra is the acclaimed expert(s)? sorry the only experts i see are the members of Wisconsin Carry, who all in this matter have now thrown under the bus, and those in authority dont seem to be listening, nor giving them credit.

    today's avitar: my wife said; clean up the garage, or else!
    Amen.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  15. #15
    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    Can someone help me spell "pandering bureaucrat and a card-carrying member of a self-deluded infrastructure"??
    Member of Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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  16. #16
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I do not deserve credit. My harassment by the MPD was not planned. It did, however, motivate me to become more active.
    shut up Paul, and bow, the applause is for you, and you have definitely earned it, hour by hour, minute by minute, event by event. It is an honor to know you, an honor to call you my friend, all of you!

  17. #17
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    shut up Paul, and bow, the applause is for you, and you have definitely earned it, hour by hour, minute by minute, event by event. It is an honor to know you, an honor to call you my friend, all of you!
    Oh trust me! I count you as my friend as well. Springfield1911 is an honorable and trustworthy soul as well. Mlutz, well, he wears pink shirts but I consider him a friend as well and Motofixxer is as well.

    Not to say I don't like and don't consider others friends as well.

    :sniff:

  18. #18
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Oh trust me! I count you as my friend as well. Springfield1911 is an honorable and trustworthy soul as well. Mlutz, well, he wears pink shirts but I consider him a friend as well and Motofixxer is as well.

    Not to say I don't like and don't consider others friends as well.

    :sniff:
    i shouldnt have to remind you of what we all know so well: i shudder to think of what bill we would be debating, arguing over, and lamenting over had it not been for your endless efforts, to learn the law, better than the men who wrote it, to bug, to call, to persuade. we are indeed witnessing the most historic of times, i also laud the efforts of all others to cumulate this moment we will all remember for the rest of our lives. i never stood with the Founding Fathers, but i can count myself lucky to have stood with all of you.

    added on edit; if we get a spot on Mt. Rushmore, make sure they get my good side.
    Last edited by McX; 10-07-2011 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post

    added on edit; if we get a spot on Mt. Rushmore, make sure they get my good side.
    And here I thought you wanted your "strong side" showing.

  20. #20
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Paul -

    Just accept the heartfelt thanks for the work you have done. And, if I have not adequately expressed my own personal gratitude before - thanks Paul, for a job well done.

    Carry on my friend, proudly carry on.

    Yellow Cat Out -
    Last edited by jpm84092; 10-07-2011 at 07:29 PM.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
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    Response from Sen. Galloway

    Sen. Galloway: Statement on attorney general’s remarks on proposed concealed carry rules
    10/7/2011

    Contact: Senator Pam Galloway
    (608) 266-2502

    State Senator Pam Galloway (R‐Wausau) released the following statement on Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen’s comments following the release of the NRA letter on proposed concealed carry rules:

    “Early this evening, media outlets ran comments from Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen following the letter sent to him yesterday by NRA Executive Director Chris Cox. The letter outlines concerns raised by the NRA in regards to the rulemaking process that the Department of Justice (DOJ) is undertaking to implement the concealed carry law. As the author of this legislation, I have reached out repeatedly to the Department of Justice to share my own concerns, especially as it relates to the training requirement in the law.

    Instead of imposing a “one-size-fits-all” training requirement, legislators overwhelmingly, and in a bipartisan fashion, passed a bill that did not include a set number of hours for a training course. Instead, the law clearly allows applicants to take a qualifying course conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization. In addition, applicants can take a course taught by a DOJ-certified instructor. We provided the flexibility to applicants for a reason.

    For the Attorney General to come out and state that a four hour training course is required of permit applicants is outrageous and a clear overreach. By going far beyond the legislative intent, the Attorney General is usurping the power of the State Legislature and engaging in activism unlike any I’ve seen before.

    When I ran for office, I did so hoping to change the culture in Madison. I’m disappointed because I thought the days of agency bureaucrats using administrative rules to change the law would come to an end. Instead, lawmakers continue to be plowed under and people all across the state are left wondering why.

    I’ve been flooded with calls from constituents that have either taken or taught courses which fall short of the four hours the Attorney General is proposing. They are confused, concerned, and they deserve a straight answer. Since the rules have not been released, there is still time for the Attorney General to do the right thing and follow the statutes and language that lawmakers clearly laid out in this legislation.

    On behalf of my colleagues and all the constituents who elect us to write and make the laws, I demand that Attorney General Van Hollen reconsider his position and leave the lawmaking up to the Legislature.”

  22. #22
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo
    Unfortunately WCI doesn't put out an annual report card that all politicians live in mortal fear of.
    I like the idea. Can we get our hands on the questionnaire the NRA (or even the Brady Bunch) sends out, to have a starting place for questioning the various legislators in WI? Or do we want to start from scratch.

    if it wasn't especially for the efforts of WCI members Nik, Brad, Hubert, Paul, Hannan-Rock, Lawyer John Monroe, Jesus, MKE gal, J.B. Vanhollen and others that had the guts to not just sit there but do something we would never be where we are today
    Eh, some of us 'just' got arrested, & were annoyed enough to stand up & fight back (with help).
    (Frank several times...)
    Not sure that's really worthy of recognition.
    Nik & Hubert have done immeasurable amounts of work to advance 2A rights in WI.
    John has all but donated his time/talents... I wish he could bill the various cities at his usual rate for each case he wins, instead of having to accept part of the (small) settlements.
    Paul had been a constant "squeaky wheel", meeting with & calling/emailing his legislators, & somehow getting them to actually listen.

    And JB???? He seems to have pretended to support our rights in order to get elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by phred
    Here is the link to Senator Galloway's Statement on Attorney General’s Remarks on Proposed Concealed Carry Rules
    Galloway for governor!

    Quote Originally Posted by scm54449
    Can someone help me spell "pandering bureaucrat and a card-carrying member of a self-deluded infrastructure"??
    I believe it starts out with a J & B...

  23. #23
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    Is the e-mail link the link that I can use to let my feelings be known.
    I am referring to the ssmeans link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheezhed View Post
    Is the e-mail link the link that I can use to let my feelings be known.
    I am referring to the ssmeans link.
    I copied the entire email into the OP including the info concerning who sent it to me. Let your feelings be known.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip...

    added on edit; if we get a spot on Mt. Rushmore, make sure they get my good side.
    To show our aapreciation, maybe it should look like this....


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	rushmore.jpg 
Views:	51 
Size:	89.0 KB 
ID:	7091

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-10-2011 at 10:34 AM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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